Discussion:
Squeak for everyday use??
(too old to reply)
Mayuresh Kathe
2012-01-28 11:08:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Lets suppose, I want to use Squeak on a regular basis for the following
tasks, how could I possibly go around achieving my goals?

1. Web surfing (not too heavy, mostly googling around)
2. EMails (lots of them, filtering, PGP would be great ;)
[handling around 300 mails a day]
3. Telnet (thats one of the most important things in my life :)
[is there SSH available too??] <grin>
4. Document preparation
(usually LaTeX, would like some way to view .ps files)
5. Journal keeping (pure text, almost 8 years of data, need some
encryption technique, certainly wouldn't want my to-be wife to
read _some_ of those entries ;)
6. A bit of music (mostly MP3)
7. A bit of drawing (mostly rough concept drawings done while on
the move)
8. PIM (Schedules, AddressBook)

~Mayuresh
Tim Rowledge
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
Hi,
Lets suppose, I want to use Squeak on a regular basis for the following
tasks, how could I possibly go around achieving my goals?
1. Web surfing (not too heavy, mostly googling around)
Currently just possible but not good for many websites; they rely on badly written javascript, terribly mangled html and probably even worse java. Many sites do terribly things with tables.

Scamper is amazing in that it works at all but it needs a great deal of work to come close to what most web users would consider a first class browsing experience. The effort would be large to make much improvement; consuder how much work goes into Mozilla or internet exploder or even the smaller browsers like Opera. Even assming we can do fives times better - because after all we're better people with a better system to work on - it still adds up to a lot of work.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
2. EMails (lots of them, filtering, PGP would be great ;)
[handling around 300 mails a day]
Celeste is pretty good but not very pretty. That could be fixed.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
3. Telnet (thats one of the most important things in my life :)
[is there SSH available too??] <grin>
I think telnet is there but ssh is not. I could be wrong. I don't think there is currently any support for secure socket stuff.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
4. Document preparation
(usually LaTeX, would like some way to view .ps files)
No idea
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
5. Journal keeping (pure text, almost 8 years of data, need some
encryption technique, certainly wouldn't want my to-be wife to
read _some_ of those entries ;)
There's a file system; you could store files in a suitable directory structure. You could use a locally hosted swiki. Many good options here.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
6. A bit of music (mostly MP3)
See MPegPlayer.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
7. A bit of drawing (mostly rough concept drawings done while on
the move)
There are options ranging from using or extendingthe painter for morphs to HotDraw to Ned's connectors to doing a new one.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
8. PIM (Schedules, AddressBook)
See class PDA

tim
--
Tim Rowledge, ***@sumeru.stanford.edu, http://sumeru.stanford.edu/tim
Useful random insult:- Ready to join the Anti-Mensa Society.
Bob Hartwig
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
6. A bit of music (mostly MP3)
See MPegPlayer.
How do I use that?
Hope thats not Morphic
Check out http://www.bobjectsinc.com/squeakamp/ . Yep, it's Morphic.
Squeak without Morphic is like a day without sunshine.
Andy Stoffel
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
3. Telnet (thats one of the most important things in my life :)
[is there SSH available too??] <grin>
I think telnet is there but ssh is not. I could be wrong.
Has telnet support improved recently ?

Hmm..... TelnetMachine open. Nope.

Of course, there's the old adage that supporting telnet is not
the same as providing useful terminal emulation. If you look at
the comments for TelnetMachine you'll see it says:

"The beginnings of a telnet terminal,"

It'll probably stay that way until someone actually needs
it to be better and can spend the time to make it better.
(Wish I knew enough myself to do it... but not yet %-( )

Also see: http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/1523


Unless you could use David Lewis' CommandShell & OSProcess
to get what you need (I've never used them so I don't know
if they can do that - be a telnet substitute ?)

-Andy-
--
John Hinsley
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Andy Stoffel wrote:

//snip//
Post by Andy Stoffel
Unless you could use David Lewis' CommandShell & OSProcess
to get what you need (I've never used them so I don't know
if they can do that - be a telnet substitute ?)
Seems not, although I've not got the very latest version. With an Xterm I get:

***@molehole:~ > telnet localhost
Trying 127.0.0.1...
Connected to localhost.
Escape character is '^]'.
Welcome to SuSE Linux 6.4 (i386) - Kernel 2.2.14 (4).

molehole login: john
Password:
Last login: Tue Mar 26 10:10:14 from console
Have a lot of fun...

Lieberman's Law:
Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter since nobody listens.

***@molehole:~ > exit
logout
Connection closed by foreign host.


With Squeak shell:

$ telnet localhost
Trying 127.0.0.1...

Connected to localhost.

Escape character is '^]'.

Connection closed by foreign host.

(All further experimentation will cease till I get SuSE 8.0 and a new hard
drive!)

Cheers

John
--
They're afraid, very afraid......
According to CRN magazine, Microsoft staff discovering Linux in use
will have now access to a special 'escalation' team.
Now, where did I put that stake and mallet?
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/01/16/0310222&mode=nocomment
David T. Lewis
2012-01-28 11:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Stoffel
Of course, there's the old adage that supporting telnet is not
the same as providing useful terminal emulation. If you look at
Unless you could use David Lewis' CommandShell & OSProcess
to get what you need (I've never used them so I don't know
if they can do that - be a telnet substitute ?)
See today's Felix Franz vt100Telnet post, which is probably what you
are looking for.

A CommandShell ("Squeak shell") can be used to open a telnet session
in an operating system window. On Windows, use the command "telnet&",
and on unix, "xterm -e telnet somehost&". CommandShell does not do
terminal emulation (such as vt100), so something like vt100Telnet is
required to do it properly within Squeak.

Dave
Mayuresh Kathe
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

If you have observed, most of them are Morphic oriented stuff.
Can't there be something for a lightweight MVC stuff?
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
2. EMails (lots of them, filtering, PGP would be great ;)
[handling around 300 mails a day]
Celeste is pretty good but not very pretty. That could be fixed.
Stuck up with Morphic :(
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
3. Telnet (thats one of the most important things in my life :)
[is there SSH available too??] <grin>
I think telnet is there but ssh is not. I could be wrong. I don't think there
is currently any support for secure socket stuff.
Again, I think stuck up with Morphic :(
Could you show me how to use it?
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
5. Journal keeping (pure text, almost 8 years of data, need some
encryption technique, certainly wouldn't want my to-be wife to
read _some_ of those entries ;)
There's a file system; you could store files in a suitable directory
structure. You could use a locally hosted swiki. Many good options here.
I could use any of the options above, but the most important features are:
Search (full text, dates, keywords)
Encryption (there is the to-be wife factor to be considered ;)
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
6. A bit of music (mostly MP3)
See MPegPlayer.
How do I use that?
Hope thats not Morphic
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
7. A bit of drawing (mostly rough concept drawings done while on
the move)
There are options ranging from using or extendingthe painter for morphs to
HotDraw to Ned's connectors to doing a new one.
Hmnn...
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
8. PIM (Schedules, AddressBook)
See class PDA
I think even that is stuck up with Morphic...

~Mayuresh
Jim Benson
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Mayuresh ,

What's with the stuck with morphic talk?

Of course you're not stuck with morphic. Just write your own code using
whatever you want to use. You can always just write some assembler if you
want to.

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mayuresh Kathe" <***@vsnl.com>
To: <squeak-***@lists.squeakfoundation.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: Squeak for everyday use??
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
Hi,
If you have observed, most of them are Morphic oriented stuff.
Can't there be something for a lightweight MVC stuff?
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
2. EMails (lots of them, filtering, PGP would be great ;)
[handling around 300 mails a day]
Celeste is pretty good but not very pretty. That could be fixed.
Stuck up with Morphic :(
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
3. Telnet (thats one of the most important things in my life :)
[is there SSH available too??] <grin>
I think telnet is there but ssh is not. I could be wrong. I don't think there
is currently any support for secure socket stuff.
Again, I think stuck up with Morphic :(
Could you show me how to use it?
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
5. Journal keeping (pure text, almost 8 years of data, need some
encryption technique, certainly wouldn't want my to-be wife to
read _some_ of those entries ;)
There's a file system; you could store files in a suitable directory
structure. You could use a locally hosted swiki. Many good options here.
Search (full text, dates, keywords)
Encryption (there is the to-be wife factor to be considered ;)
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
6. A bit of music (mostly MP3)
See MPegPlayer.
How do I use that?
Hope thats not Morphic
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
7. A bit of drawing (mostly rough concept drawings done while on
the move)
There are options ranging from using or extendingthe painter for morphs to
HotDraw to Ned's connectors to doing a new one.
Hmnn...
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
8. PIM (Schedules, AddressBook)
See class PDA
I think even that is stuck up with Morphic...
~Mayuresh
Aaron J Reichow
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
If you have observed, most of them are Morphic oriented stuff.
Can't there be something for a lightweight MVC stuff?
[...]
I think even that is stuck up with Morphic...
There could be, but Morphic is nicer, newer, and generally more fun, so
that's where almost all active development with GUI apps goes on now.
One could write similar tools for MVC, or modify the existing to work in
both Morphic and MVC, but I doubt that there are going to be many people
jumping at that opportunity, seeing how Morphic is where most people work.

Any particular reason you don't want Morphic-based tools?

Regards,
Aaron

Aaron Reichow :: UMD ACM Pres :: http://www.d.umn.edu/~reic0024/
"life, probably the biggest word i've ever said, that says a lot,
because there's a whole lot of words inside my head.." :: atmosphere
Mayuresh Kathe
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Woops, did I p*** someone off?
I am sorry.

But frankly, Morphic *is* really heavy on resources.
Isn't it?
:)

~Mayuresh
Post by Jim Benson
Mayuresh ,
What's with the stuck with morphic talk?
Of course you're not stuck with morphic. Just write your own code using
whatever you want to use. You can always just write some assembler if you
want to.
Jim
Dan Ingalls
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
Woops, did I p*** someone off?
I am sorry.
But frankly, Morphic *is* really heavy on resources.
Isn't it?
:)
Here's my opinion. I don't think there is much to the morphic approach that is intrinsically heavier on resources than any other approach (and I assume this is the comparison most people care about here).

There is lots of extra baggage in morphic right now because lots of people are adding stuff, and have done so for half a decade. I personally have gone on about three crusades to make things run faster in morphic, only to discover that things I made efficient on the last go-round had been defeated again by recently added features. [this is not an accusation, but an illustration of Squeak's current state of non-optimization]

This is an inevitable characteristic of evolving, and especially multi-authored and under-documented, projects.

In fact morphic is frequently lean on memory resources compared to MVC's saved bitmaps behind every window (you can turn these off, but then things flash a lot). Numerous features such as rounded corners, and rounded scroll bars and the like force Morphic to do a lot of extra work, but these situations, too, can be dealt with any time we decide things are stable long enough to merit some serious performance tuning.

Also, we have long forgotten and, because we are not yet using the module system we have not yet relearned, that morphic by itself is not all that large. I recently built a real-world commercial application about which I will tell all in a week. I chose to do it in morphic, and I was delighted to find how much could be thrown away, and how adequately things performed with a modicum of tweaking. I test it on a used 133MHz Windoze laptop.

So, I would answer that, as it comes, and if you use the expensive and untuned options, yes, morphic is a bit of a resource hog. But I would add that, given some real-world application that you want to deliver, morphic can fairly easily be tweaked to MVC-level performance in speed and space with not more than a couple of man-weeks' effort by a knowledgeable and performance-passionate Squeaker.

YMMV of course...

- Dan
Mayuresh Kathe
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Please don't get me wrong.

Morphic *does* look nice (way neater than pure MVC).
But, it _does_ take up a lot of resources (processor, memory) which could be
used for more constructive use.

Sorry, no offense meant towards anyone's work.

Regards,

~Mayuresh
Post by Aaron J Reichow
Any particular reason you don't want Morphic-based tools?
Aaron J Reichow
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
1. Web surfing (not too heavy, mostly googling around)
Scamper is the web browser in Squeak currently. It is very bare-bones.
Even a small, textmode browser like Links does quite a bit more.
Unforuntately, a lot of sites now a days are very feature heavy- JS, Java,
funky tables and the like. Luckily, the kinds of things I read on-line
look OK in browsers like Scamper and Dillo, but I imagine I'm a minority
and that respect.

One promising lead is Jon Hyland's MediaView-
http://www.huv.com/smalltalk/browser.html

As time goes by, this lead seems less promising, however. He's not had
the time to tidy and fileOut the code thus far, and my attempts to contact
him to see if some other arragement could be reached (a third-party doing
the code clean-up, or distributing the old image sans clean-up), but I've
not recieved any responses.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
2. EMails (lots of them, filtering, PGP would be great ;)
[handling around 300 mails a day]
It seems a fair amount of people use Celeste and like it. No PGP now, but
that could be added.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
3. Telnet (thats one of the most important things in my life :)
[is there SSH available too??] <grin>
There is TelnetMachine, a very primitive telnet client. Can't handle much
in the way of terminal emulation though, I am guessing running something
like emacs would be out of the question.

On the Squeak IRC channel (#squeak on irc.openprojects.net), someone was
talking about a VT100 emulator on which they were working. I can't recall
his nick, but if you're reading this, please pipe up. :) IIRC, it had
features enough to run emacs over a telnet connection and display it
decently. A SSH backend could be added to it, I imagine, although that
hasn't been done yet, AFAIK.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
4. Document preparation
(usually LaTeX, would like some way to view .ps files)
See the "Document Crafting, Objectively" thread in the archive. Lots of
jibberjabbering about this. No real tools yet, although I'd love
something LaTeX-ish for creating docs for print in Squeak.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
5. Journal keeping (pure text, almost 8 years of data, need some
encryption technique, certainly wouldn't want my to-be wife to
read _some_ of those entries ;)
It would be pretty easy to create a journal browser that stored journal
entries in a hierarchical manner. Doesn't exist yet.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
6. A bit of music (mostly MP3)
There's an MP3 player in Squeak.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
7. A bit of drawing (mostly rough concept drawings done while on
the move)
There are some painting tools in Squeak, but to my knowledge, nothing for
vector drawing yet.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
8. PIM (Schedules, AddressBook)
There's a class PDA. As a part of my Dynapad PDA Environment, I plan on
creating a nicer set of PIM tools. Eventually at http://spe.sf.net.

Regards,
Aaron

Aaron Reichow :: UMD ACM Pres :: http://www.d.umn.edu/~reic0024/
"life, probably the biggest word i've ever said, that says a lot,
because there's a whole lot of words inside my head.." :: atmosphere
Jon Hylands
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:57:47 -0600 (CST), Aaron J Reichow
Post by Aaron J Reichow
One promising lead is Jon Hyland's MediaView-
http://www.huv.com/smalltalk/browser.html
As time goes by, this lead seems less promising, however. He's not had
the time to tidy and fileOut the code thus far, and my attempts to contact
him to see if some other arragement could be reached (a third-party doing
the code clean-up, or distributing the old image sans clean-up), but I've
not recieved any responses.
Andrew (and everyone else),

I apologize for not getting back to you on this -- I looked back, and sure
enough the email from you is in my inbox... My excuse is I just (after 5
months with no work) got a new contract in Florida, and getting down here
and getting set up has been a major hassle.

Anyways, I did release my web browser quite a while ago -- just after
Smalltalk Solutions last year, in fact. I heard not a peep from anyone
about it, so I figured no-one was interested.

I've just in a past couple months gotten emails from two people (one of
them was yourself) about it. The reason it is not on my server anymore is
the zip file was 12 MB, and I was exceeding my space quota, and something
had to go, and since no-one seemed to care one way or the other, I just
deleted it from the server.

Unfortunately, given that the code was written in 1997, and Squeak has
changed a small amount since then, it doesn't work very well. I started
porting it to work in Morphic last year, but the new layout stuff didn't
seem to work very well, and I just stopped working on it...

If people are interested, I will make an effort in the next couple weeks to
work on the code again, and get it into a state where at least you can file
it into a 3.2 or 3.3 image to work on it...

Later,
Jon

--------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Hylands ***@huv.com http://www.huv.com/jon

Project: Micro Seeker (Micro Autonomous Underwater Vehicle)
http://www.huv.com
Alan Kay
2012-01-28 11:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Jon --

This would be really great! Thanks!

Cheers,
Alan

----
Post by Jon Hylands
On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:57:47 -0600 (CST), Aaron J Reichow
Post by Aaron J Reichow
One promising lead is Jon Hyland's MediaView-
http://www.huv.com/smalltalk/browser.html
As time goes by, this lead seems less promising, however. He's not had
the time to tidy and fileOut the code thus far, and my attempts to contact
him to see if some other arragement could be reached (a third-party doing
the code clean-up, or distributing the old image sans clean-up), but I've
not recieved any responses.
Andrew (and everyone else),
I apologize for not getting back to you on this -- I looked back, and sure
enough the email from you is in my inbox... My excuse is I just (after 5
months with no work) got a new contract in Florida, and getting down here
and getting set up has been a major hassle.
Anyways, I did release my web browser quite a while ago -- just after
Smalltalk Solutions last year, in fact. I heard not a peep from anyone
about it, so I figured no-one was interested.
I've just in a past couple months gotten emails from two people (one of
them was yourself) about it. The reason it is not on my server anymore is
the zip file was 12 MB, and I was exceeding my space quota, and something
had to go, and since no-one seemed to care one way or the other, I just
deleted it from the server.
Unfortunately, given that the code was written in 1997, and Squeak has
changed a small amount since then, it doesn't work very well. I started
porting it to work in Morphic last year, but the new layout stuff didn't
seem to work very well, and I just stopped working on it...
If people are interested, I will make an effort in the next couple weeks to
work on the code again, and get it into a state where at least you can file
it into a 3.2 or 3.3 image to work on it...
Later,
Jon
--------------------------------------------------------------
Project: Micro Seeker (Micro Autonomous Underwater Vehicle)
http://www.huv.com
--
Karl Ramberg
2012-01-28 11:08:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Hylands
Anyways, I did release my web browser quite a while ago -- just after
Smalltalk Solutions last year, in fact. I heard not a peep from anyone
about it, so I figured no-one was interested.
I was interested, but when I saw it was not hooked up to morphic
I had a hard time understanding it, as I only know morphic and
not mvc.
Post by Jon Hylands
Unfortunately, given that the code was written in 1997, and Squeak has
changed a small amount since then, it doesn't work very well. I started
porting it to work in Morphic last year, but the new layout stuff didn't
seem to work very well, and I just stopped working on it...
If people are interested, I will make an effort in the next couple weeks to
work on the code again, and get it into a state where at least you can file
it into a 3.2 or 3.3 image to work on it...
This seems to be a great effort.

Karl
Simon Michael
2012-01-28 11:08:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Hylands
If people are interested, I will make an effort in the next couple weeks to
work on the code again, and get it into a state where at least you can file
it into a 3.2 or 3.3 image to work on it...
Jon - yes please.

Thanks,
-Simon

Karl Ramberg
2012-01-28 11:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron J Reichow
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
1. Web surfing (not too heavy, mostly googling around)
Scamper is the web browser in Squeak currently. It is very bare-bones.
Even a small, textmode browser like Links does quite a bit more.
Unforuntately, a lot of sites now a days are very feature heavy- JS, Java,
funky tables and the like. Luckily, the kinds of things I read on-line
look OK in browsers like Scamper and Dillo, but I imagine I'm a minority
and that respect.
One promising lead is Jon Hyland's MediaView-
http://www.huv.com/smalltalk/browser.html
As time goes by, this lead seems less promising, however. He's not had
the time to tidy and fileOut the code thus far, and my attempts to contact
him to see if some other arragement could be reached (a third-party doing
the code clean-up, or distributing the old image sans clean-up), but I've
not recieved any responses.
I have a image with it loaded, but changes corruped :-(
And I have a change set with it but it will not file in :-(


Anybody interested ?

Karl
Mayuresh Kathe
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
This one sure is promising, whoa, I was totally blown out.
Why isn't PARC releasing it?
It would be a great tool for all of us.

Probably heavy weights like Alan Kay, Dan Ingalls, et all could help the
Squeak community out here?

~Mayuresh
Post by Aaron J Reichow
One promising lead is Jon Hyland's MediaView-
http://www.huv.com/smalltalk/browser.html
Tim Rowledge
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
This one sure is promising, whoa, I was totally blown out.
Why isn't PARC releasing it?
Because PARC doesn't have the tiniest bit to do with it. Jon's browser was written on Interval Research's time and he got permission to release it after the project was canned, just like a lot of the stuff Craig & I have been able to release. PARC hasn't had a lot to do with Smalltalk in a long, long, long time.

tim
--
Tim Rowledge, ***@sumeru.stanford.edu, http://sumeru.stanford.edu/tim
SCCS, the source motel! Programs check in and never check out! - Ken Thompson
Mayuresh Kathe
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Your DynaPad seems interesting (the concept), would you keep the list
posted?

~Mayuresh
Post by Aaron J Reichow
There's a class PDA. As a part of my Dynapad PDA Environment, I plan on
creating a nicer set of PIM tools. Eventually at http://spe.sf.net.
Aaron J Reichow
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
This one sure is promising, whoa, I was totally blown out.
Why isn't PARC releasing it?
It would be a great tool for all of us.
Probably heavy weights like Alan Kay, Dan Ingalls, et all could help the
Squeak community out here?
Well, I do'nt think it's PARC's to release. Or was Interval owned by
Xerox? In any case, I think he has permission to release it, I don't know
of the Smalltalk big-guns would do much good in the way of trying to
pressure Jon into releasing it. I think the guy is just busy or MIA for
the time being.

Someone (Karl, I think) said that the code was up on Jon's server, for a
while, but the link I was given no longer works. Did anyone happen to
mirror the image that was up for download?

Regards,
Aaron

Aaron Reichow :: UMD ACM Pres :: http://www.d.umn.edu/~reic0024/
"a system based on exchanging products inevitably channels wealth to a few, and
no governmental change will ever be able to correct that." :: daniel quinn
Aaron J Reichow
2012-01-28 11:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
Please don't get me wrong.
Morphic *does* look nice (way neater than pure MVC).
But, it _does_ take up a lot of resources (processor, memory) which could be
used for more constructive use.
Sorry, no offense meant towards anyone's work.
I didn't ask because I was offended, I'm just honestly curious on what
kind of target you want to run Squeak. Morphic does take up more
resources than MVC, but it seems to perform sufficiently on a goodly
amount of hardware available today. I seems mostly fast enough on an iPAQ
running at 206 MHz with 16 MB of RAM. 206 MHz is still pretty fast
though. Planning on running Squeak on some 486s?

Regards,
Aaron

Aaron Reichow :: UMD ACM Pres :: http://www.d.umn.edu/~reic0024/
"if i don't stay true to live and hate, how do i differentiate
between chasing cream and chasing dreams" :: atmosphere
Mayuresh Kathe
2012-01-28 11:08:41 UTC
Permalink
You mean to say that browser of yours does not use Morphic??

Wow, thats cool, and thats an awesome piece of work, I should say...
Hats off to you.

Will the browser work on a image which has been MajorShrink(ed)?
(Just MVC)

If not Morphic, what did you use to create the UI?

Eagerly awaiting your reply.

~Mayuresh
Post by Jon Hylands
Unfortunately, given that the code was written in 1997, and Squeak has
changed a small amount since then, it doesn't work very well. I started
porting it to work in Morphic last year, but the new layout stuff didn't
seem to work very well, and I just stopped working on it...
If people are interested, I will make an effort in the next couple weeks to
work on the code again, and get it into a state where at least you can file
it into a 3.2 or 3.3 image to work on it...
Jon Hylands
2012-01-28 11:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
If not Morphic, what did you use to create the UI?
The browser was written for a highly modified version of Squeak, back
around version 2.4 or something like that (whatever was current in 1997).
Morphic wasn't really even usable back then, so I didn't even consider
using it.

The web pages were all drawn directly on the window. I used modified
Paragraph objects to display the text.

We (at Interval) had our own windowing system, our own graphics primitives,
and so on.

All of the layout will need to be redone. I have started on that, but it
needs many many hours of work.

Later,
Jon

--------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Hylands ***@huv.com http://www.huv.com/jon

Project: Micro Seeker (Micro Autonomous Underwater Vehicle)
http://www.huv.com
Tim Rowledge
2012-01-28 11:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Hylands
We (at Interval) had our own windowing system, our own graphics primitives,
and so on.
Actually IIRC it was more like _four_ systems with little agreement as to which one was to be used, how to design etc. It was a classic case of a project starting up without any seriously experienced practitioners and getting into all sorts of problems that then need clearing up. Of course, you then have issues with the 'originals' feeling that their stuff is perfect and the 'laters' claiming it isn't and so on.

Moral of the story; hire me at the beginning of the project, not halfway through. :-)

tim
--
Tim Rowledge, ***@sumeru.stanford.edu, http://sumeru.stanford.edu/tim
It is ten o'clock; do you know where your processes are?
Mayuresh Kathe
2012-01-28 11:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Could you try doing a MajorShrink on your 3.0 image?
And then probably try and get the browser to work with that?

That would pave the way for really using Squeak in embedded internet access
devices.

I am an absolute newbie and have now restarted efforts at learning ST, I
think I should get on full speed within a month, then I'll start writing an
email reader for MVC.

Again, great work, and hope you manage to get the browser working on MVC.

Eagerly awaiting your reply.

~Mayuresh
Post by Jon Hylands
The browser was written for a highly modified version of Squeak, back
around version 2.4 or something like that (whatever was current in 1997).
Morphic wasn't really even usable back then, so I didn't even consider
using it.
The web pages were all drawn directly on the window. I used modified
Paragraph objects to display the text.
We (at Interval) had our own windowing system, our own graphics primitives,
and so on.
All of the layout will need to be redone. I have started on that, but it
needs many many hours of work.
Jon Hylands
2012-01-28 11:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
Could you try doing a MajorShrink on your 3.0 image?
And then probably try and get the browser to work with that?
No, I don't think so. If someone else wants to do that, that works fine
with me.

The majority of Squeak users work in Morphic. Any reasonable embedded
device is going to have lots of RAM, and lots of FLASH file space. There
will be some that don't, of course, but I'm not going to penalize the 99%
who do by not using Morphic.

Later,
Jon

--------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Hylands ***@huv.com http://www.huv.com/jon

Project: Micro Seeker (Micro Autonomous Underwater Vehicle)
http://www.huv.com
Göran Hultgren
2012-01-28 11:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi!
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
Hi,
Lets suppose, I want to use Squeak on a regular basis for the following
tasks, how could I possibly go around achieving my goals?
1. Web surfing (not too heavy, mostly googling around)
Hmmm, Scamper is there but... :-) I usually have Galeon or Mozilla up in parallell.
This is one area that Squeak will have a hard time to handle unless the code by Jon Hylands get's
cleaned up by someone... Or someone would integrate the Gecko engine as a plugin - someone
mentioned that the other day.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
2. EMails (lots of them, filtering, PGP would be great ;)
[handling around 300 mails a day]
Check! No problem. I use "stock" Celeste and it works superb. The new and improved FilterCeleste
scales even better as I understand it. PGP is coming right as we speak obviously. Eh... GPG? :-)

We are a bunch of users so new features tend to popup in this area.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
3. Telnet (thats one of the most important things in my life :)
Check! There is a telnet client. I don't know how good it is, I don't use it but I think it is
useable.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
[is there SSH available too??] <grin>
No, but we really should write a plugin for SSL/SSH... Perhaps someday. We might need it in a
project of ours so...
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
4. Document preparation
(usually LaTeX, would like some way to view .ps files)
Oops. Viewing Postscript is one complex job. But sure, perhaps someone could write some fancy
plugin for ghostscript!? :-)

Btw, I use Lout instead of LaTeX (same but better IMHO) and a nice Lout preparation environment in
Squeak should be easy to produce - I mean, hey, it's just text with tags! :-)

By using OSProcess you could probably quite easy whip up some form of authoring environment that
just calls TeX or Lout when it comes to compile some output.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
5. Journal keeping (pure text, almost 8 years of data, need some
encryption technique, certainly wouldn't want my to-be wife to
read _some_ of those entries ;)
Well, we got encryption so a little journal app should be easy to build.
And since Scott Crosby recently produced a nice text indexing package for very fast text searching
that would be a perfect fit.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
6. A bit of music (mostly MP3)
Check! Already there, SqueakAMP - works superb and looks cool!
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
7. A bit of drawing (mostly rough concept drawings done while on
the move)
Check! Try Ned Konz "Connectors" - they are perfect for that and can generate Postscript.
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
8. PIM (Schedules, AddressBook)
Well, nothing there now apart from some PDA playstuff (I think).
Post by Mayuresh Kathe
~Mayuresh
regards, Göran



=====
Göran Hultgren, ***@bluefish.se
GSM: +46 70 3933950, http://www.bluefish.se
"Department of Redundancy department." -- ThinkGeek

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®
http://movies.yahoo.com/
Aaron J Reichow
2012-01-28 11:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karl Ramberg
Post by Aaron J Reichow
As time goes by, this lead seems less promising, however. He's not had
the time to tidy and fileOut the code thus far, and my attempts to contact
him to see if some other arragement could be reached (a third-party doing
the code clean-up, or distributing the old image sans clean-up), but I've
not recieved any responses.
I have a image with it loaded, but changes corruped :-(
And I have a change set with it but it will not file in :-(
Anybody interested ?
Someone was kind enough to email me a copy of the original archive Jon
sent out to the list. He's planning on packaging it up soon, but until
then, I'll make it available- I'll send a link out when I've access to my
computer later this evening.

Regards,
Aaron

Aaron Reichow :: UMD ACM Pres :: http://www.d.umn.edu/~reic0024/
"truth is beautiful, without doubt; but so are lies." :: r. w. emerson
ducasse
2012-01-28 11:08:47 UTC
Permalink
hi Jon

have you made a call for project? May be people around would like to
participate.
I look at it but I'm bad in morphic and the core morph is not consistent
with different coordinate system. But your browser was really impressive so
this would be really interesting to resurrect it.

Stef
Post by Karl Ramberg
Post by Jon Hylands
Anyways, I did release my web browser quite a while ago -- just after
Smalltalk Solutions last year, in fact. I heard not a peep from anyone
about it, so I figured no-one was interested.
I was interested, but when I saw it was not hooked up to morphic
I had a hard time understanding it, as I only know morphic and
not mvc.
Post by Jon Hylands
Unfortunately, given that the code was written in 1997, and Squeak has
changed a small amount since then, it doesn't work very well. I started
porting it to work in Morphic last year, but the new layout stuff didn't
seem to work very well, and I just stopped working on it...
If people are interested, I will make an effort in the next couple weeks to
work on the code again, and get it into a state where at least you can file
it into a 3.2 or 3.3 image to work on it...
This seems to be a great effort.
Karl
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...