Discussion:
Proposed web site
(too old to reply)
Bruce O'Neel
2012-01-28 11:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

One of the long standing complaints about squeak has been the
squeak.org website has gotten out of date.


One proposal is at http://edoneel.chaosnet.org/squeak/index.html.

Some comments:

- This is an attempt to make a minimial website, ie, let's
keep to an absolute minimum the bits that have to be directly
maintained and push most of the maintenace off to the squeak
swiki. This means that, basically, the web site will only be as
good as the Swiki, so, keep that swiki up to date. I'm leaning
very hard towards the idea that squeak.org should be one web page.


- I tried not to overload the page with too many links. I may not
have succeeded. While a large chunk of the squeak community are
programmers, not all of us are. Unlike ruby-lang.org, perl.org,
python.org, et al which are aimed at programmers we need to appeal
to a broader group. Ergo the proposed squeak.org is less (I think)
busy.

- Yes, I borrowed the Mozilla Europe stylesheet. I think I can do
that, but, if not, the look can be changed. It's all CSS.
Blue seems like a reasonable squeak color.

- The wording of all of this is subject to change. I am alleged
to natively speak some form of English, but I sure can't write it.

- Since I'm alergic to wearing all black, I'm obviously not a designer
either. Apparently some real black dressed designer people will have
a go at the design and try to make it better.


If you've already commented and I seem to have ignored your
comment, could you send it again? I didn't ignore it, I just
got overloaded.

And finally, I wanted to put a pointer to Tweak, but, tweak is
too common a name and therefore I couldn't find a good web page.
Could someone point me in the right direction there?

If someone would like to make a good "other big projects with squeak"
page on the swiki I'd also like to point to that. The current
other projects with squeak is just a bit too big.

thanks!

cheers

bruce
--
***@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
goran.krampe at bluefish.se ()
2012-01-28 11:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi all!
Post by Bruce O'Neel
Hi,
One of the long standing complaints about squeak has been the
squeak.org website has gotten out of date.
One proposal is at http://edoneel.chaosnet.org/squeak/index.html.
Yup, I at least like it.
Post by Bruce O'Neel
- This is an attempt to make a minimial website, ie, let's
keep to an absolute minimum the bits that have to be directly
maintained and push most of the maintenace off to the squeak
swiki. This means that, basically, the web site will only be as
good as the Swiki, so, keep that swiki up to date. I'm leaning
very hard towards the idea that squeak.org should be one web page.
And yes, that is a nice idea. One page.
Post by Bruce O'Neel
- I tried not to overload the page with too many links. I may not
have succeeded. While a large chunk of the squeak community are
programmers, not all of us are. Unlike ruby-lang.org, perl.org,
python.org, et al which are aimed at programmers we need to appeal
to a broader group. Ergo the proposed squeak.org is less (I think)
busy.
I am mainly missing two things:

- An FAQ link. Though this should be a more high level FAQ than the one
at the Swiki.
And it would be nice to have it in the same style - perhaps simply
renaming the Documentation tab to FAQ, and then have it there? A second
page (tab) but keeping the stuff to the left and right and just
replacing the center part?

- A longer list of "main" links, perhaps simply below the central blue
section instead of off to the right. This means say 10 links to the most
important other Squeaky places we know, including at least:
www.squeakland.org
people.squeakfoundation.org
www.squeakfoundation.org
www.croquet.org
minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak

Or make that the third tab.
Post by Bruce O'Neel
- Yes, I borrowed the Mozilla Europe stylesheet. I think I can do
that, but, if not, the look can be changed. It's all CSS.
Blue seems like a reasonable squeak color.
Yeah, but we gotta make the images transparent. :) We could also put a
"This design borrowed from Mozilla" and mention that the license allows
it.
Post by Bruce O'Neel
- The wording of all of this is subject to change. I am alleged
to natively speak some form of English, but I sure can't write it.
- Since I'm alergic to wearing all black, I'm obviously not a designer
either. Apparently some real black dressed designer people will have
a go at the design and try to make it better.
If you've already commented and I seem to have ignored your
comment, could you send it again? I didn't ignore it, I just
got overloaded.
And finally, I wanted to put a pointer to Tweak, but, tweak is
too common a name and therefore I couldn't find a good web page.
Could someone point me in the right direction there?
If someone would like to make a good "other big projects with squeak"
page on the swiki I'd also like to point to that. The current
other projects with squeak is just a bit too big.
Ok, but I actually think that the "only the most important links"-list
should be on the site itself.
Post by Bruce O'Neel
thanks!
cheers
bruce
regards, Göran
Cees de Groot
2012-01-28 11:47:16 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:10:47 +0000, Bruce O'Neel
Post by Bruce O'Neel
Blue seems like a reasonable squeak color.
Blue, or Pink? ;)
Post by Bruce O'Neel
- Since I'm alergic to wearing all black, I'm obviously not a designer
either. Apparently some real black dressed designer people will have
a go at the design and try to make it better.
I don't give a <peep>. It looks ok, no-one will run away scared, and if a
hacker coded it, hackers will have a chance of maintaining it. Way more
important than a one-off great design by some sort of half-baked artist.

Great work! I like it. Let's get it out there :)

(Do you want to have write access to the new location of squeak.org so you
can work on it in the place where squeak.org will likely be in whatever
timeframe network solutions needs to be convinced that Dan is allowed to
repoint stuff?)
Martin Wirblat
2012-01-28 11:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cees de Groot
(Do you want to have write access to the new location of squeak.org
so you can work on it in the place where squeak.org will likely be
in whatever timeframe network solutions needs to be convinced that
Dan is allowed to repoint stuff?)
Perhaps the better question is, whether Dan himself is convinced to
repoint stuff. If I understand correctly, the idea is to have only a
single page for squeak.org and everything else is located in an
arbitrary number of chaos-wikis?

Well, I must say here, the idea is.. ehem... Squeak should have at least
one place as comprehensive as possible, where it offers a homogeneous
look and balanced information and when possible in a special design
which underlines Squeak's very nature and contrasts from the uniform
design of blogs and wikis.

This is not the sort of work which can be done by an ever changing bunch
of not-so-collaborating-people. Terrific examples of what I mean are
pages at the Minnow site like:

- New Squeaker questions
- The Newbie page

These are really killer pages - they kill every interest of a newcomer
or a random surfer in a few seconds.

Current Squeak.org has the right concept, it is just a bit outdated.

Regards,
Martin
goran.krampe at bluefish.se ()
2012-01-28 11:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Wirblat
Post by Cees de Groot
(Do you want to have write access to the new location of squeak.org
so you can work on it in the place where squeak.org will likely be
in whatever timeframe network solutions needs to be convinced that
Dan is allowed to repoint stuff?)
Perhaps the better question is, whether Dan himself is convinced to
repoint stuff. If I understand correctly, the idea is to have only a
single page for squeak.org and everything else is located in an
arbitrary number of chaos-wikis?
The repoint will first go to the same content. We have it mirrored over.

We will not take any new website online until due process, there are a
number of other people working in this area in parallell so the
different designs needs comparison etc etc.

So no worries. :)

regards, Göran
Hernan Tylim
2012-01-28 11:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bruce,

I really liked the page. An odd thing that I encountered was the squeak
logo on the top left corner. I don't know if the logo was supposed to
have that background color. It kind of look odd, don't it?

I also support your idea of a very minimal site and I wanted to ask if
the "Latest news" section is really necesary. Because if for some reason
that section stop being updated, then the site (and therefore the
product) will inmmediately look dead to an outsider.

Instead of "Latest news" I propose a box with statistics that will show
that Squeak is alive and kicking. From the top of my head we could have:

- number of new packages registered on SM on the current month (and total)
- number of new mails on the current month on squeakdev
- number of new mails on the current month on squeakland
- number of new bugs reported on the current month.
- number of new bugs fixed on the current month.


Lastly. Great work bruce! I really liked and sorry that I can only help
with words and not code.

Regards,
Hern?n
Post by Bruce O'Neel
Hi,
One of the long standing complaints about squeak has been the
squeak.org website has gotten out of date.
One proposal is at http://edoneel.chaosnet.org/squeak/index.html.
- This is an attempt to make a minimial website, ie, let's
keep to an absolute minimum the bits that have to be directly
maintained and push most of the maintenace off to the squeak
swiki. This means that, basically, the web site will only be as
good as the Swiki, so, keep that swiki up to date. I'm leaning
very hard towards the idea that squeak.org should be one web page.
- I tried not to overload the page with too many links. I may not
have succeeded. While a large chunk of the squeak community are
programmers, not all of us are. Unlike ruby-lang.org, perl.org,
python.org, et al which are aimed at programmers we need to appeal
to a broader group. Ergo the proposed squeak.org is less (I think)
busy.
- Yes, I borrowed the Mozilla Europe stylesheet. I think I can do
that, but, if not, the look can be changed. It's all CSS.
Blue seems like a reasonable squeak color.
- The wording of all of this is subject to change. I am alleged
to natively speak some form of English, but I sure can't write it.
- Since I'm alergic to wearing all black, I'm obviously not a designer
either. Apparently some real black dressed designer people will have
a go at the design and try to make it better.
If you've already commented and I seem to have ignored your
comment, could you send it again? I didn't ignore it, I just
got overloaded.
And finally, I wanted to put a pointer to Tweak, but, tweak is
too common a name and therefore I couldn't find a good web page.
Could someone point me in the right direction there?
If someone would like to make a good "other big projects with squeak"
page on the swiki I'd also like to point to that. The current
other projects with squeak is just a bit too big.
thanks!
cheers
bruce
Simon Michael
2012-01-28 11:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bruce,

+1! A great step forward and ready for production IMHO. I applaud the
greater reliance on wiki. There'll now be less chance of dead pages and
more reason to make the wiki better.

I'll post a version with some proposed tweaks later perhaps.

Though it isn't a wiki page it would be nice to think of it that way.
Perhaps we could have it updated on the 1st of the month whenever
someone has posted a version that we/you/ted prefer. Being a single page
makes this pretty easy.

-Simon
Bruce ONeel
2012-01-28 11:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Yes, thinking of it as a wiki page with a slightly slower edit
cycle might be a good model.

cheers

bruce
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:33:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Proposed web site
content-length: 501
Hi Bruce,
+1! A great step forward and ready for production IMHO. I applaud the
greater reliance on wiki. There'll now be less chance of dead pages and
more reason to make the wiki better.
I'll post a version with some proposed tweaks later perhaps.
Though it isn't a wiki page it would be nice to think of it that way.
Perhaps we could have it updated on the 1st of the month whenever
someone has posted a version that we/you/ted prefer. Being a single page
makes this pretty easy.
-Simon
Lex Spoon
2012-01-28 11:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Looks nice! Boy, it sure does put the pressure on the Swiki pages
to get updated!

Is anyone going to be around to actually post to the news area? That would
be great to have, but only if it gets updated. Perhaps some software can automatically
trash old news items, so that we don't have an embarassingly out of date site if
there is a lapse of updates?

Squeakland.org is a good "big squeak project" to link to, unless there
is some better site for the educators. Also, there is a Projects page on
the Swiki.


-Lex
stéphane ducasse
2012-01-28 11:47:17 UTC
Permalink
What bruce presented is really a draft resulting of some brainstorming
we got.
We hope to come with a better design (adrian designer will try) and
after we will set up a
SmallWiki wiki to host that following the www.seaside.st web site. So
that several people can edit the site.
The challenge is to be able to package well squeak and this is complex
since Squeak is so rich.

Let's back doing for now.
Tim Rowledge
2012-01-28 11:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce O'Neel
Hi,
One of the long standing complaints about squeak has been the
squeak.org website has gotten out of date.
One proposal is at http://edoneel.chaosnet.org/squeak/index.html.
Well, it looks reasonably well layed out on Safari but on both my main
browsers (yes, on RISC OS of course) it looks _terrible_. Maybe people
don't care about that but it would be nice to have the page be in simple
enough html to work well on any browser. I wish I were expert enough to
make specific recommendations. It _is_ possible to make page layouts
like this which will work in older browsers.

I really don't like the balloon graphic. I suggest a much better
graphic would be an actual screenshot of an image with some interesting
tools open. Making it a link to more screenshots of the tools -
accompanied by some explanation of what they do, why they are useful
etc would be helpful in explaining the system to newcomers. People like
pictures.

And of course I expect to see the RISC OS port pointed to in the list
along with unix, mac and that other thing from redmond.


tim
--
Tim Rowledge, ***@sumeru.stanford.edu, http://sumeru.stanford.edu/tim
Modem: How a Southerner asks for seconds...
Hilaire Fernandes
2012-01-28 11:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Bruce O'Neel
Hi,
One of the long standing complaints about squeak has been the
squeak.org website has gotten out of date.
One proposal is at http://edoneel.chaosnet.org/squeak/index.html.
Well, it looks reasonably well layed out on Safari but on both my main
browsers (yes, on RISC OS of course) it looks _terrible_. Maybe people
don't care about that but it would be nice to have the page be in simple
enough html to work well on any browser. I wish I were expert enough to
make specific recommendations. It _is_ possible to make page layouts
like this which will work in older browsers.
I don't know the actual state of RiscOS browsers (I once was a user and
developper on RiscOS, still have some) but the problem is that antic
browser use a layout based on table, which is sort of evil as it has
been told to me. The proposed layout seems to be based on CSS layer,
which is the today standard. Nevertheless, I was successfull browsing
the page with the text browser 'links', which is cool.
I hope no one will ask for the new web site to be scamper friendly ;-)
David Mitchell
2012-01-28 11:47:24 UTC
Permalink
I think the proposed site looks great. Maybe we could have a
low-fidelity one that works in Scamper?
Bruce ONeel
2012-01-28 11:47:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

It looks ok in lynx. Do you have any idea what part of
the site goes pear shaped in your RISC os browser?

Ie, is it the fact that it uses CSS? Is it that CSS partially
works and then things go bad? What other sites
seem ot use CSS but look good in our browser?

thanks!

cheers

bruce
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:15:36 -0800
Subject: Re: Proposed web site
content-length: 1251
Post by Bruce O'Neel
Hi,
One of the long standing complaints about squeak has been the
squeak.org website has gotten out of date.
One proposal is at http://edoneel.chaosnet.org/squeak/index.html.
Well, it looks reasonably well layed out on Safari but on both my main
browsers (yes, on RISC OS of course) it looks _terrible_. Maybe people
don't care about that but it would be nice to have the page be in simple
enough html to work well on any browser. I wish I were expert enough to
make specific recommendations. It _is_ possible to make page layouts
like this which will work in older browsers.
I really don't like the balloon graphic. I suggest a much better
graphic would be an actual screenshot of an image with some interesting
tools open. Making it a link to more screenshots of the tools -
accompanied by some explanation of what they do, why they are useful
etc would be helpful in explaining the system to newcomers. People like
pictures.
And of course I expect to see the RISC OS port pointed to in the list
along with unix, mac and that other thing from redmond.
tim
--
Modem: How a Southerner asks for seconds...
Tim Rowledge
2012-01-28 11:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce ONeel
Hi,
It looks ok in lynx. Do you have any idea what part of
the site goes pear shaped in your RISC os browser?
Take a look at the image (3/4 scaled & low-ish res jpeg) on
http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/5594 to see some of what I mean.

As for pages of a similar sort that look ok... well it could take a
while to dig them out. Don't hold your breath! Oh! Actually, try the
one I am looking at right now for my news; www.drobe.co.uk

tim
--
Tim Rowledge, ***@sumeru.stanford.edu, http://sumeru.stanford.edu/tim
All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?
Hernan Tylim
2012-01-28 11:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I added pictures of how the site looks on my Windows box. I tried with
Mozilla Firefox (my regular browser) and with Internet Explorer. It
seems that both browsers have problem rendering that page.

Regards,
Hern?n
Post by Tim Rowledge
Post by Bruce ONeel
Hi,
It looks ok in lynx. Do you have any idea what part of
the site goes pear shaped in your RISC os browser?
Take a look at the image (3/4 scaled & low-ish res jpeg) on
http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/5594 to see some of what I mean.
As for pages of a similar sort that look ok... well it could take a
while to dig them out. Don't hold your breath! Oh! Actually, try the
one I am looking at right now for my news; www.drobe.co.uk
tim
--
All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?
Darius
2012-01-28 11:47:33 UTC
Permalink
Great start!

What seems to be missing to me is visually zeroing in on the answer to the most
common questions a visitor might have:

"Why is Squeak important?",
"What makes it better?",
"Why is Smalltalk important?",
"What makes Smalltalk better?"

In the list of projects titled "Elsewhere", Croquet, Spoon, etc. perhaps show a
small screenshot or gif representing the project. Similar to what Tim's
newsletter does it. (Maybe even have animated gifs with slow transitions, bu-t
not too flashy.)
... right now for my news; www.drobe.co.uk
Cheers,
Darius
Michael van der Gulik
2012-01-28 11:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce O'Neel
Hi,
One of the long standing complaints about squeak has been the
squeak.org website has gotten out of date.
One proposal is at http://edoneel.chaosnet.org/squeak/index.html.
How is this going? Can I help?

Would we be likely be seeing an updated site soon? Who actually
maintains that site? Cees?

Mikevdg.
Alexander Lazarević
2012-01-28 11:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi!
Post by Michael van der Gulik
How is this going? Can I help?
Sure. It is a good idea for anyone who wants to contribute to join the
new mailing list of the website team. Just send a mail to the following
address:

website-***@discuss.squeakfoundation.org

Thanks again G?ran for setting this up.

Regards,
Alex

Brent Vukmer
2012-01-28 11:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Bruce -

Should we have a "Bug Tracking" link on that page that points to
either Mantis or the Swiki page about Mantis?

I like the look ... except for the colorized Squeak logo. I dunno, it
just seems to clash with the banner color and the balloon image
colors.
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