Discussion:
I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31
(too old to reply)
karl
2012-01-28 12:16:02 UTC
Permalink
I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few years,
and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars 31 I will
step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
website, ftp and mailing list.

I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join the
webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.


Karl
Raymond Asselin
2012-01-28 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by karl
I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
years,
Post by karl
and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars 31 I will
step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
website, ftp and mailing list.
I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join
the
Post by karl
webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
Karl
You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
Ron Teitelbaum
2012-01-28 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the community!

Ron Teitelbaum
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 5:30 PM
To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31
Post by karl
I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
years,
Post by karl
and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars 31 I will
step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
website, ftp and mailing list.
I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join
the
Post by karl
webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
Karl
You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
Germán Arduino
2012-01-28 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting, complete and cool.

Thanks you.
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the community!
Ron Teitelbaum
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 5:30 PM
To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31
Post by karl
I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
years,
Post by karl
and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars 31 I will
step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
website, ftp and mailing list.
I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join
the
Post by karl
webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
Karl
You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
Ken Causey
2012-01-28 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you and
some others have missed the point. Karl is not fishing for comments.
In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to step
down from leading the website team and would like to find a replacement.
He has not gotten any replies. He is now stating that he really is
leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it is now
really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for the
immediate future at the very least.

Ken
Post by Germán Arduino
I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting, complete and cool.
Thanks you.
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the community!
Ron Teitelbaum
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 5:30 PM
To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31
Post by karl
I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
years,
Post by karl
and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars 31 I will
step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
website, ftp and mailing list.
I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join
the
Post by karl
webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
Karl
You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
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Janko Mivšek
2012-01-28 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi Squeakers,

I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.

Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building up
and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some experience
how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).

That experience can help to improve a bit otherwise already very rich
Squeak website. Other possibility for improvement is to upgrade
technology behind website and here I can again contribute with
Aida/Scribo CMS, which is a base for Aida's website and is currently in
intense development, just adding blog support. That way a Squeak website
will also be a show point of most advanced technology Squeakers have.
Which is good in my opinion for Squeak and Smalltalk promotion in general.

To conclude, I can contribute with maintaining content on one side but
also to upgrade the website technology to Aida/Scribo CMS, so that a
website will be modern, with fresh and relevant content and with all
things such site needs to have those days.

Janko
Post by Ken Causey
While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you and
some others have missed the point. Karl is not fishing for comments.
In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to step
down from leading the website team and would like to find a replacement.
He has not gotten any replies. He is now stating that he really is
leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it is now
really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for the
immediate future at the very least.
Ken
Post by Germán Arduino
I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting, complete and cool.
Thanks you.
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the community!
Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
Post by karl
I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
years,
Post by karl
and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars 31 I will
step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
website, ftp and mailing list.
I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join
the
Post by karl
webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
Karl
You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
Brian T. Rice
2012-01-28 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janko Mivšek
Hi Squeakers,
I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building up
and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some
experience
how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).
While SEO experience is an important skill for website management, I
think you are too partisan in your marketing for Aida and against
Seaside to be a serious candidate. I've done some basic effective SEO
tasks, and the Squeak website itself could certainly be improved in
that way, I fear that your solutions will inherently involve your
favorite hammer rather than working within Seaside (aka "what we
have") the ways it provides.
Post by Janko Mivšek
That experience can help to improve a bit otherwise already very rich
Squeak website. Other possibility for improvement is to upgrade
technology behind website and here I can again contribute with
Aida/Scribo CMS, which is a base for Aida's website and is currently in
intense development, just adding blog support. That way a Squeak website
will also be a show point of most advanced technology Squeakers have.
Which is good in my opinion for Squeak and Smalltalk promotion in general.
Aida/Scribe CMS is the "most advanced technology Squeakers have"?
While it's probably quite good, I think you're revealing your self-
interest.

I don't want to debate which framework or approach to web development
is better (and neither do you, apparently, having made your choice and
vocalizing it constantly), but Squeak does have a CMS and it seems to
serve us as a community well enough to keep improving it. Seaside also
provides us with some very innovative approaches to web applications
development that it alone is good PR for the community.
Post by Janko Mivšek
To conclude, I can contribute with maintaining content on one side but
also to upgrade the website technology to Aida/Scribo CMS, so that a
website will be modern, with fresh and relevant content and with all
things such site needs to have those days.
I spend a lot of time with non-Smalltalkers who do web development,
and myself am currently working on web applications in a non-Smalltalk
(yet palatable) environment, so my bias is towards the perspective of
outsiders who are looking for open accessible information and
exposition of the Squeak community and its artifacts. I would offer my
candidacy as an alternative to your proposed deal in which you link
your volunteerism to lead with an "upgrade" of the site to the
application framework you author and self-promote.

I think the main "upgrade" we do need is for the Squeak Swiki, which
is many years old and doesn't help us with SEO at all, as I have
repeatedly found out while trying to google some solution for new
Squeakers. Aida could possibly help with that, but so could many other
choices. In any case, the answer is more about content and making
Squeak and Squeak information findable than any technology.
Post by Janko Mivšek
Post by Ken Causey
While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you and
some others have missed the point. Karl is not fishing for comments.
In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to step
down from leading the website team and would like to find a
replacement.
He has not gotten any replies. He is now stating that he really is
leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it is now
really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for the
immediate future at the very least.
Ken
Post by Germán Arduino
I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting,
complete and cool.
Thanks you.
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the community!
Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
Post by karl
I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
years,
Post by karl
and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars 31
I will
Post by karl
Post by karl
step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to
maintain the
Post by karl
Post by karl
website, ftp and mailing list.
I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence
join
Post by karl
the
Post by karl
webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
Karl
You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
--
http://BrianTRice.com
Matthew Fulmer
2012-01-28 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janko Mivšek
Hi Squeakers,
I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building up
and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some experience
how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).
While SEO experience is an important skill for website management, I think
you are too partisan in your marketing for Aida and against Seaside to be a
serious candidate. I've done some basic effective SEO tasks, and the Squeak
website itself could certainly be improved in that way, I fear that your
solutions will inherently involve your favorite hammer rather than working
within Seaside (aka "what we have") the ways it provides.
For what it's worth, practically none of the Squeak website uses Seaside:

- squeak.org uses Smallwiki, which has it's own web engine.
- swiki uses swiki, which uses PWS
- lists.squeakfoundation.org uses Mailman, a python tool
- bugs.squeak.org uses Mantis, a php tool
- map.squeak.org uses HttpView2
- people.squeakfoundation.org uses some php tool
- source.squeakfoundation.org uses SqueakSource, which uses
seaside.

So, Seaside can't really be said to be "what we have"
--
Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808
Ken Causey
2012-01-28 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fulmer
- people.squeakfoundation.org uses some php tool
Actually, to clarify people.squeakfoundation is an Advogato-like site
built on mod_virgule (in other words an Apache1.x module implemented in
C).

Ken
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Igor Stasenko
2012-01-28 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Matthew Fulmer
- people.squeakfoundation.org uses some php tool
Actually, to clarify people.squeakfoundation is an Advogato-like site
built on mod_virgule (in other words an Apache1.x module implemented in
C).
It's a quite unimpressive details.
Now i'm understand why people.squeakfoundation.org so obscure with features.
No offense to anyone :)
Post by Ken Causey
Ken
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
Brian T. Rice
2012-01-28 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fulmer
Post by Janko Mivšek
Hi Squeakers,
I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience
building up
and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some
experience
how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).
While SEO experience is an important skill for website management, I think
you are too partisan in your marketing for Aida and against Seaside to be a
serious candidate. I've done some basic effective SEO tasks, and the Squeak
website itself could certainly be improved in that way, I fear that your
solutions will inherently involve your favorite hammer rather than working
within Seaside (aka "what we have") the ways it provides.
- squeak.org uses Smallwiki, which has it's own web engine.
Not Smallwiki2/Pier? Huh, that's what I thought was there.
Post by Matthew Fulmer
- swiki uses swiki, which uses PWS
- lists.squeakfoundation.org uses Mailman, a python tool
- bugs.squeak.org uses Mantis, a php tool
- map.squeak.org uses HttpView2
- people.squeakfoundation.org uses some php tool
- source.squeakfoundation.org uses SqueakSource, which uses
seaside.
So, Seaside can't really be said to be "what we have"
Yeah, I'm aware of these, but it's helpful to see them presented as
such a group. Well then, maybe Aida is a step forward if Janko (or his
Aida users) can deliver and maintain what he seems to intend. But any
upgrades should start with the Swiki since it has a large amount of
content and isn't an externally-maintained piece of software (it's
effectively abandonware). I certainly won't say that I like or prefer
that these are all in various technologies, some grottier than others,
but information visibility should be the lead goal.

I *would* like SqueakSource to be MUCH more friendly to external
linking (some would say RESTful; I just want it SEO-friendly) but we'd
need to wrangle some effort in that direction (no one in charge of SqS
claims to have the time to do it yet).

In any case, we're talking about a pretty large effort for a community
of mostly part-time people.

--
http://BrianTRice.com
Igor Stasenko
2012-01-28 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian T. Rice
Post by Matthew Fulmer
Post by Janko Mivšek
Hi Squeakers,
I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building up
and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some experience
how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).
While SEO experience is an important skill for website management, I think
you are too partisan in your marketing for Aida and against Seaside to be a
serious candidate. I've done some basic effective SEO tasks, and the Squeak
website itself could certainly be improved in that way, I fear that your
solutions will inherently involve your favorite hammer rather than working
within Seaside (aka "what we have") the ways it provides.
- squeak.org uses Smallwiki, which has it's own web engine.
Not Smallwiki2/Pier? Huh, that's what I thought was there.
Post by Matthew Fulmer
- swiki uses swiki, which uses PWS
- lists.squeakfoundation.org uses Mailman, a python tool
- bugs.squeak.org uses Mantis, a php tool
- map.squeak.org uses HttpView2
- people.squeakfoundation.org uses some php tool
- source.squeakfoundation.org uses SqueakSource, which uses
seaside.
So, Seaside can't really be said to be "what we have"
Yeah, I'm aware of these, but it's helpful to see them presented as
such a group. Well then, maybe Aida is a step forward if Janko (or his
Aida users) can deliver and maintain what he seems to intend. But any
upgrades should start with the Swiki since it has a large amount of
content and isn't an externally-maintained piece of software (it's
effectively abandonware). I certainly won't say that I like or prefer
that these are all in various technologies, some grottier than others,
but information visibility should be the lead goal.
I *would* like SqueakSource to be MUCH more friendly to external
linking (some would say RESTful; I just want it SEO-friendly) but we'd
need to wrangle some effort in that direction (no one in charge of SqS
claims to have the time to do it yet).
In any case, we're talking about a pretty large effort for a community
of mostly part-time people.
If Janko can push things with Aida, i don't mind so. Between
stagnation and movement i choose movement.
If he haves enough time to commit himself to fully reworking site
content under new platform, it is only for a good, no matter what
platform it is.

P.S. i'd prefer seaside, because i know a little about it :)
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
Nicolas Petton
2012-01-28 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Igor Stasenko
Post by Brian T. Rice
Post by Matthew Fulmer
Post by Janko Mivšek
Hi Squeakers,
I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building up
and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some experience
how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).
While SEO experience is an important skill for website management, I think
you are too partisan in your marketing for Aida and against Seaside to be a
serious candidate. I've done some basic effective SEO tasks, and the Squeak
website itself could certainly be improved in that way, I fear that your
solutions will inherently involve your favorite hammer rather than working
within Seaside (aka "what we have") the ways it provides.
- squeak.org uses Smallwiki, which has it's own web engine.
Not Smallwiki2/Pier? Huh, that's what I thought was there.
Post by Matthew Fulmer
- swiki uses swiki, which uses PWS
- lists.squeakfoundation.org uses Mailman, a python tool
- bugs.squeak.org uses Mantis, a php tool
- map.squeak.org uses HttpView2
- people.squeakfoundation.org uses some php tool
- source.squeakfoundation.org uses SqueakSource, which uses
seaside.
So, Seaside can't really be said to be "what we have"
Yeah, I'm aware of these, but it's helpful to see them presented as
such a group. Well then, maybe Aida is a step forward if Janko (or his
Aida users) can deliver and maintain what he seems to intend. But any
upgrades should start with the Swiki since it has a large amount of
content and isn't an externally-maintained piece of software (it's
effectively abandonware). I certainly won't say that I like or prefer
that these are all in various technologies, some grottier than others,
but information visibility should be the lead goal.
I *would* like SqueakSource to be MUCH more friendly to external
linking (some would say RESTful; I just want it SEO-friendly) but we'd
need to wrangle some effort in that direction (no one in charge of SqS
claims to have the time to do it yet).
In any case, we're talking about a pretty large effort for a community
of mostly part-time people.
If Janko can push things with Aida, i don't mind so. Between
stagnation and movement i choose movement.
If he haves enough time to commit himself to fully reworking site
content under new platform, it is only for a good, no matter what
platform it is.
P.S. i'd prefer seaside, because i know a little about it :)
Actually, Aida is very easy to learn :)
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Randal L. Schwartz
2012-01-28 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Igor> If Janko can push things with Aida, i don't mind so. Between
Igor> stagnation and movement i choose movement.

+1
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<***@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Andreas Raab
2012-01-28 12:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Igor Stasenko
If Janko can push things with Aida, i don't mind so. Between
stagnation and movement i choose movement.
I would recommend spending two minutes to think about how to roll out
such a change and how to roll back if (god forbid) the job turns out too
big, the tool not suited, or the volunteer in question getting run over
by a bus. Only headless chickens move merely for the sake of movement ;-)

Cheers,
- Andreas
Igor Stasenko
2012-01-28 12:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andreas Raab
Post by Igor Stasenko
If Janko can push things with Aida, i don't mind so. Between
stagnation and movement i choose movement.
I would recommend spending two minutes to think about how to roll out
such a change and how to roll back if (god forbid) the job turns out too
big, the tool not suited, or the volunteer in question getting run over
by a bus. Only headless chickens move merely for the sake of movement ;-)
Well, i hope Janko understands how hard it can be. And if he really
thinks that he capable to work things out, then why not. Nevertheless,
we have to put trust in people time to time :)
As i noticed, i'd vote for seasider, but if there is nobody else who
can commit enough time to remake site and support it, then what
choices do we have?
Post by Andreas Raab
Cheers,
- Andreas
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
Andreas Raab
2012-01-28 12:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Igor Stasenko
Post by Andreas Raab
Post by Igor Stasenko
If Janko can push things with Aida, i don't mind so. Between
stagnation and movement i choose movement.
I would recommend spending two minutes to think about how to roll out
such a change and how to roll back if (god forbid) the job turns out too
big, the tool not suited, or the volunteer in question getting run over
by a bus. Only headless chickens move merely for the sake of movement ;-)
Well, i hope Janko understands how hard it can be. And if he really
thinks that he capable to work things out, then why not. Nevertheless,
we have to put trust in people time to time :)
Sure. But part of trusting him to work things out is to trust him to
come up with a plan that can address these issues, no? (and by "plan" I
mean nothing complicated - just a staging site so that people can have a
look at it and the board can decide when it's ready to go live)
Post by Igor Stasenko
As i noticed, i'd vote for seasider, but if there is nobody else who
can commit enough time to remake site and support it, then what
choices do we have?
We have the choice of the status quo.

Cheers,
- Andreas
Igor Stasenko
2012-01-28 12:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andreas Raab
Post by Igor Stasenko
Post by Andreas Raab
Post by Igor Stasenko
If Janko can push things with Aida, i don't mind so. Between
stagnation and movement i choose movement.
I would recommend spending two minutes to think about how to roll out
such a change and how to roll back if (god forbid) the job turns out too
big, the tool not suited, or the volunteer in question getting run over
by a bus. Only headless chickens move merely for the sake of movement ;-)
Well, i hope Janko understands how hard it can be. And if he really
thinks that he capable to work things out, then why not. Nevertheless,
we have to put trust in people time to time :)
Sure. But part of trusting him to work things out is to trust him to
come up with a plan that can address these issues, no? (and by "plan" I
mean nothing complicated - just a staging site so that people can have a
look at it and the board can decide when it's ready to go live)
Yes, i'm fully agree with that.
Post by Andreas Raab
Post by Igor Stasenko
As i noticed, i'd vote for seasider, but if there is nobody else who
can commit enough time to remake site and support it, then what
choices do we have?
We have the choice of the status quo.
I really don't care (as well as 99.9% of others) what software
delivers content to my browser
as long as it does it fast and site looking good and convenient to
navigate/find required information. The list, provided by Matthew
perfectly reflects that.

I would really better consider about inviting a good web designer to
refresh 'face' of squeak than about what platform to choose for
content management.
We both know that things sell themselves better if they're eye candy :)
Post by Andreas Raab
Cheers,
- Andreas
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
Janko Mivšek
2012-01-28 12:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Igor Stasenko
I really don't care (as well as 99.9% of others) what software
delivers content to my browser
as long as it does it fast and site looking good and convenient to
navigate/find required information. The list, provided by Matthew
perfectly reflects that.
I would really better consider about inviting a good web designer to
refresh 'face' of squeak than about what platform to choose for
content management.
We both know that things sell themselves better if they're eye candy :)
That's actually a main duty of a WebTeam in my opinion and it is good
that you mention it, because we sail just too deep in technical part of
the story.

So, how to improve content and website design? This is actually hardest
question and by my experience maintaining aidaweb.si definitively hard.
You need to keep an eye on it all the time, be careful to refresh
content regularly and keep it consistent. Maybe with delegation of this
duty to more people, to those which are closer to a "semantic" of content?

About design, we are just in process to redesign our site and maybe we
can extend that redesign to squeak site too. Let we keep that in mind
for a bit more.

Janko
--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
Janko Mivšek
2012-01-28 12:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andreas Raab
Post by Igor Stasenko
Well, i hope Janko understands how hard it can be. And if he really
thinks that he capable to work things out, then why not. Nevertheless,
we have to put trust in people time to time :)
Sure. But part of trusting him to work things out is to trust him to
come up with a plan that can address these issues, no? (and by "plan" I
mean nothing complicated - just a staging site so that people can have a
look at it and the board can decide when it's ready to go live)
A test website with all current content migrated is definitively a must
to do before switching to a new CMS. And a demo to see the features and
possibilities how to contribute, publish, edit and maintain content too.
As I already said I'll try to provide such demo during a weekend, then
we can discuss further steps.

Janko
Post by Andreas Raab
Post by Igor Stasenko
As i noticed, i'd vote for seasider, but if there is nobody else who
can commit enough time to remake site and support it, then what
choices do we have?
We have the choice of the status quo.
Cheers,
- Andreas
--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
Janko Mivšek
2012-01-28 12:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi Andreas,
Post by Andreas Raab
Post by Igor Stasenko
If Janko can push things with Aida, i don't mind so. Between
stagnation and movement i choose movement.
I would recommend spending two minutes to think about how to roll out
such a change and how to roll back if (god forbid) the job turns out too
big, the tool not suited, or the volunteer in question getting run over
by a bus. Only headless chickens move merely for the sake of movement ;-)
Yes, that's a right question to ask: what are guaranties for long-term
commitment and quality of proposed solution. And how open is that
solution so that in any unfortunate case the community is not stuck.

1. Aida is not one-man-band anymore, it has now quite vibrant community
of contributors and especially users developing and running their own
sites [1, 2]. This is a guarantee that there are more than one who is
knowledgeable in Aida and already in Scribo. And many of them are
preparing to help in WebTeam, so community won't stuck.

2. I'm earning all my money on Aida and Scribo based solutions for 12
years now (Scribo 5 years). This will continue for many years more, so
here is a guarantee of my commitment to that technology.

3. Scribo is actually 5 years old commercial document and business
process management technology (BiArt), a core of which is now
open-sourced and will be released under the name Scribo. All existing
BiArt systems are already migrating on top of Scribo, which is a
guarantee that Scribo will live also out of pure business interest.

4.Scribo content is file based, with XML metadata about all content
attributes. Therefore is completely independent of technology above and
this design decision was made intentionally in BiArt, besides
independence of content also to enable a long term archiving of content
(20 years or more). Content is stored in formats which are
archive-friendly and just FYI, BiArt systems are used as legally valid
archive systems. Here the long term guaranty for the content.

5. I'm hosting near 40 websites on Aida/Web on a collocated server, most
of them are hosted BiArts for my customers, with a 99.99% uptime [3].
Here a guarantee that I'm taking web business seriously and know, how to
monitor and run things continuously, without disruption.

I hope that this answers to most of doubts about the proposal.

Janko

[1] http://www.aidaweb.si/community.html
[2] http://www.aidaweb.si/success-stories.html
[3] http://www.aidaweb.si/admin.html?view=serverStatistics
--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
Ken Causey
2012-01-28 12:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andreas Raab
Post by Igor Stasenko
If Janko can push things with Aida, i don't mind so. Between
stagnation and movement i choose movement.
I would recommend spending two minutes to think about how to roll out
such a change and how to roll back if (god forbid) the job turns out too
big, the tool not suited, or the volunteer in question getting run over
by a bus. Only headless chickens move merely for the sake of movement ;-)
Cheers,
- Andreas
Assuming Swazoo can live behind Apache as happily as Kom then it's as
little as a change of one digit in an apache configuration file and a
graceful restart. As leader of the box-admins team I will ensure that
whatever happens that at the very worst I can restore the current site
in a matter of a few minutes.

Ken
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Brad Fuller
2012-01-28 12:16:04 UTC
Permalink
All,

Why do you want to change the website? I'm not saying it shouldn't
change. But, I don't think it should change just because it doesn't
look like any of the other "modern" site. First, I'd like to hear
some good reasons of why it shoudl change and, more importantly, what
will it change to.

In other words, the content and design is more important than any new
fangled engine. I hear it's "stagnant" (etc.) Ok, what the heck is
wrong with it and what do you propose to change?

(I'm not being defensive, I'm just trying to serve the people that use the site)
--
Brad Fuller
www.bradfuller.com
Lukas Renggli
2012-01-28 12:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian T. Rice
Not Smallwiki2/Pier? Huh, that's what I thought was there.
The Squeak website runs with SmallWiki, which is the predecessor of
Pier. This is a port from VisualWorks and does not base on Seaside.

Pier is based on Seaside and developed in Squeak. To some extent it is
backward compatible to SmallWiki. It comes with dozens of plugins and
is proven technology for years for many sites (including the one of
Seaside). All code is MIT licensed.

http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/Archive/Reports/Reng07c.pdf
Post by Brian T. Rice
I *would* like SqueakSource to be MUCH more friendly to external
linking (some would say RESTful; I just want it SEO-friendly) but we'd
need to wrangle some effort in that direction (no one in charge of SqS
claims to have the time to do it yet).
SqueakSource (www.squeaksource.com) is not part of the
SqueakFoundation, it is privately hosted by the University of Bern.
SqueakSource is RESTful to some extent, repositories and projects can
be bookmarked (at least in the latest version).

Lukas
--
Lukas Renggli
http://www.lukas-renggli.ch
Simon Michael
2012-01-28 12:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Hey all,

that's a nice list, Matthew. And the planets are running Venus, a python
blog aggregator. So we have a nice little collection going here.

I appreciate Janko's offer and I'm interested to see what he can come up
with as a demo, and if it's better, I'd vote to jump to it. Let the bar
be raised, and Seaside folks are free to raise it again!
Janko Mivšek
2012-01-28 12:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi Simon,
Post by Simon Michael
that's a nice list, Matthew. And the planets are running Venus, a python
blog aggregator. So we have a nice little collection going here.
I appreciate Janko's offer and I'm interested to see what he can come up
with as a demo, and if it's better, I'd vote to jump to it. Let the bar
be raised, and Seaside folks are free to raise it again!
Demo is a good idea. Let me try to come out during a weekend so that you
can see Scribo in action. I'll try to support first page of squeak.org
for instance ...

JAnko
--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
Simon Michael
2012-01-28 12:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Hey all,

that's a nice list, Matthew. And the planets are running Venus, a python
blog aggregator. So we have a nice little collection going here.

I appreciate Janko's offer and I'm interested to see what he can come up
with as a demo, and if it's better, I'd vote to jump to it. Let the bar
be raised, and Seaside folks are free to raise it again!
Janko Mivšek
2012-01-28 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian T. Rice
While SEO experience is an important skill for website management, I
think you are too partisan in your marketing for Aida and against
Seaside to be a serious candidate. I've done some basic effective SEO
tasks, and the Squeak website itself could certainly be improved in that
way, I fear that your solutions will inherently involve your favorite
hammer rather than working within Seaside (aka "what we have") the ways
it provides.
Yes, I'm offering to community a technology which author I am and I
don't see the reason why I shouldn't promote it? It runs on Squeak, it
clearly shows good results, so where you see the problem (except that
you are strong promoter of Seaside and obviously don't like competition
at all)? This is Squeak community, not only Seaside, neither Aida one.
Let we both offer to community the best we have. Best in terms of
experience and technology. And SEO results, by the way!

Janko
Post by Brian T. Rice
Post by Janko Mivšek
That experience can help to improve a bit otherwise already very rich
Squeak website. Other possibility for improvement is to upgrade
technology behind website and here I can again contribute with
Aida/Scribo CMS, which is a base for Aida's website and is currently in
intense development, just adding blog support. That way a Squeak website
will also be a show point of most advanced technology Squeakers have.
Which is good in my opinion for Squeak and Smalltalk promotion in general.
Aida/Scribe CMS is the "most advanced technology Squeakers have"? While
it's probably quite good, I think you're revealing your self-interest.
I don't want to debate which framework or approach to web development is
better (and neither do you, apparently, having made your choice and
vocalizing it constantly), but Squeak does have a CMS and it seems to
serve us as a community well enough to keep improving it. Seaside also
provides us with some very innovative approaches to web applications
development that it alone is good PR for the community.
Post by Janko Mivšek
To conclude, I can contribute with maintaining content on one side but
also to upgrade the website technology to Aida/Scribo CMS, so that a
website will be modern, with fresh and relevant content and with all
things such site needs to have those days.
I spend a lot of time with non-Smalltalkers who do web development, and
myself am currently working on web applications in a non-Smalltalk (yet
palatable) environment, so my bias is towards the perspective of
outsiders who are looking for open accessible information and exposition
of the Squeak community and its artifacts. I would offer my candidacy as
an alternative to your proposed deal in which you link your volunteerism
to lead with an "upgrade" of the site to the application framework you
author and self-promote.
I think the main "upgrade" we do need is for the Squeak Swiki, which is
many years old and doesn't help us with SEO at all, as I have repeatedly
found out while trying to google some solution for new Squeakers. Aida
could possibly help with that, but so could many other choices. In any
case, the answer is more about content and making Squeak and Squeak
information findable than any technology.
Post by Janko Mivšek
Post by Ken Causey
While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you and
some others have missed the point. Karl is not fishing for comments.
In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to step
down from leading the website team and would like to find a replacement.
He has not gotten any replies. He is now stating that he really is
leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it is now
really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for the
immediate future at the very least.
Ken
Post by Germán Arduino
I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting, complete and cool.
Thanks you.
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the community!
Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
Post by karl
I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
years,
Post by karl
and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars 31 I
will
Post by karl
Post by karl
step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to
maintain the
Post by karl
Post by karl
website, ftp and mailing list.
I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join
the
Post by karl
webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
Karl
You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
--Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
--
http://BrianTRice.com
--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
cdrick
2012-01-28 12:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian T. Rice
While SEO experience is an important skill for website management, I
think you are too partisan in your marketing for Aida and against
Seaside to be a serious candidate. I've done some basic effective SEO
tasks, and the Squeak website itself could certainly be improved in
that way, I fear that your solutions will inherently involve your
favorite hammer rather than working within Seaside (aka "what we
have") the ways it provides.
*His solution* was not Janko initiative. Ken Kausey suggested him on
IRC and I think it's a good idea. Seaside has already a lot of
promotion IMHO. Personnaly, I think there is room for both...
especially if you consider the squeak site is *static* so I don't
really see interest in having seaside used here (of course Pier could
do it) as we could not say there are high level business processes in
the squeak sites...).

Of course Janko promotes his babies but not too obtrusively to me. I
don't remember him saying aida is better than seaside or whatever. He
also reckons, doing business processes in aida is not as straight as
in seaside. The only think he advocate is aida is simple to learn and
use.
Post by Brian T. Rice
Aida/Scribe CMS is the "most advanced technology Squeakers have"?
While it's probably quite good, I think you're revealing your self-
interest.
I think he's talking in general. Janko also develops Swazoo where
seaside and aida can run on top of... I think he'd like a 100%
smalltak powered approach ;-) avoiding Apache if possible...
Post by Brian T. Rice
I don't want to debate which framework or approach to web development
is better (and neither do you, apparently, having made your choice and
vocalizing it constantly), but Squeak does have a CMS and it seems to
serve us as a community well enough to keep improving it.
Smallwiki ?
Post by Brian T. Rice
Seaside also
provides us with some very innovative approaches to web applications
development that it alone is good PR for the community.
yes and ? Are you sure it's appropriate here ?
Post by Brian T. Rice
I spend a lot of time with non-Smalltalkers who do web development,
and myself am currently working on web applications in a non-Smalltalk
(yet palatable) environment, so my bias is towards the perspective of
outsiders who are looking for open accessible information and
exposition of the Squeak community and its artifacts. I would offer my
candidacy as an alternative to your proposed deal in which you link
your volunteerism to lead with an "upgrade" of the site to the
application framework you author and self-promote.
Why don't you join with Janko ? The hard work is more about content
that technologies involved anyway and you seem interested in
content...
Post by Brian T. Rice
I think the main "upgrade" we do need is for the Squeak Swiki, which
is many years old and doesn't help us with SEO at all, as I have
repeatedly found out while trying to google some solution for new
Squeakers. Aida could possibly help with that, but so could many other
choices. In any case, the answer is more about content and making
Squeak and Squeak information findable than any technology.
I agree but this is another thread...

my 2 cents

C?drick

ps: I've only seaside so far...
Stephen Pair
2012-01-28 12:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Janko,
I hate to drag this up again, and maybe you've covered it before, but could
you share your reasoning behind licensing Aida as LGPL. Would you consider
also making it available under MIT? I personally am hesitant to do anything
with software under any L/GPL type license. I think others have a similar
concern and that might be an issue if a number of the squeak websites used
Aida. It's an honest question, I have no agenda here (other than a concern
over L/GPL type licenses).

- Stephen

P.S. My opinion on L/GPL is that these licenses served a useful purpose and
were a necessity to prevent Unix vendors from simply co-opting Stallman's
work at a time when open source wasn't the norm. But today, the situation
is much different. Open source is largely accepted and its value well
understood. GPL and LGPL impose unnecessary restrictions on use and only
serve to complicate matters. I can appreciate why Stallman is so stuck on
GPL given his experiences, but I think he's sort of stuck in the past.
Post by Janko Mivšek
Hi Squeakers,
I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building up
and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some experience
how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).
That experience can help to improve a bit otherwise already very rich
Squeak website. Other possibility for improvement is to upgrade
technology behind website and here I can again contribute with
Aida/Scribo CMS, which is a base for Aida's website and is currently in
intense development, just adding blog support. That way a Squeak website
will also be a show point of most advanced technology Squeakers have.
Which is good in my opinion for Squeak and Smalltalk promotion in general.
To conclude, I can contribute with maintaining content on one side but
also to upgrade the website technology to Aida/Scribo CMS, so that a
website will be modern, with fresh and relevant content and with all
things such site needs to have those days.
Janko
Post by Ken Causey
While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you and
some others have missed the point. Karl is not fishing for comments.
In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to step
down from leading the website team and would like to find a replacement.
He has not gotten any replies. He is now stating that he really is
leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it is now
really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for the
immediate future at the very least.
Ken
Post by Germán Arduino
I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting, complete
and cool.
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Thanks you.
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the
community!
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
Post by karl
I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
years,
Post by karl
and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars 31 I
will
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
Post by karl
step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain
the
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
Post by karl
website, ftp and mailing list.
I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join
the
Post by karl
webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
Karl
You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
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Randal L. Schwartz
2012-01-28 12:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Stephen> I hate to drag this up again, and maybe you've covered it before, but
Stephen> could you share your reasoning behind licensing Aida as LGPL. Would
Stephen> you consider also making it available under MIT? I personally am
Stephen> hesitant to do anything with software under any L/GPL type license.
Stephen> I think others have a similar concern and that might be an issue if a
Stephen> number of the squeak websites used Aida. It's an honest question, I
Stephen> have no agenda here (other than a concern over L/GPL type licenses).

+1, as I've already spoken my opinion about GPL with relation to getting
things accepted commercially.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<***@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Janko Mivšek
2012-01-28 12:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi Stephen,

Well, yes, licenses again. We can relicence to MIT or whatever else,
because for me all what is important is to use the code in accordance to
the main rule on our world: a Golden Rule:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity

Best regards
Janko
Post by Stephen Pair
Janko,
I hate to drag this up again, and maybe you've covered it before, but
could you share your reasoning behind licensing Aida as LGPL. Would you
consider also making it available under MIT? I personally am hesitant
to do anything with software under any L/GPL type license. I think
others have a similar concern and that might be an issue if a number of
the squeak websites used Aida. It's an honest question, I have no
agenda here (other than a concern over L/GPL type licenses).
- Stephen
P.S. My opinion on L/GPL is that these licenses served a useful purpose
and were a necessity to prevent Unix vendors from simply co-opting
Stallman's work at a time when open source wasn't the norm. But today,
the situation is much different. Open source is largely accepted and
its value well understood. GPL and LGPL impose unnecessary restrictions
on use and only serve to complicate matters. I can appreciate why
Stallman is so stuck on GPL given his experiences, but I think he's sort
of stuck in the past.
Hi Squeakers,
I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building up
and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some experience
how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).
That experience can help to improve a bit otherwise already very rich
Squeak website. Other possibility for improvement is to upgrade
technology behind website and here I can again contribute with
Aida/Scribo CMS, which is a base for Aida's website and is currently in
intense development, just adding blog support. That way a Squeak website
will also be a show point of most advanced technology Squeakers have.
Which is good in my opinion for Squeak and Smalltalk promotion in general.
To conclude, I can contribute with maintaining content on one side but
also to upgrade the website technology to Aida/Scribo CMS, so that a
website will be modern, with fresh and relevant content and with all
things such site needs to have those days.
Janko
Post by Ken Causey
While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you and
some others have missed the point. Karl is not fishing for comments.
In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to step
down from leading the website team and would like to find a
replacement.
Post by Ken Causey
He has not gotten any replies. He is now stating that he really is
leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it
is now
Post by Ken Causey
really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for the
immediate future at the very least.
Ken
Post by Germán Arduino
I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting,
complete and cool.
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Thanks you.
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the
community!
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
Post by karl
I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
years,
Post by karl
and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars
31 I will
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
Post by karl
step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to
maintain the
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
Post by karl
website, ftp and mailing list.
I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web
appearence join
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
the
Post by karl
webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
Karl
You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
Stephen Pair
2012-01-28 12:16:05 UTC
Permalink
That is excellent news! Thank you.
- Stephen

P.S. While I think having good interoperability with the web world is
important, part of me is saddened by the fact that we still have to live
with the web...the web is crap. I hate it, I'm tried of it, I wish it would
die already. We need something better...much better. And I think the
opportunity for someone to invent that is right now. I think a lot of the
discussion around Silverlight, Flash, Air, etc highlight the fact that
people are hungry for something much better.

P.P.S. And I say this as someone that invested a lot of time a number of
years ago working on Comanche.
Post by Janko Mivšek
Hi Stephen,
Well, yes, licenses again. We can relicence to MIT or whatever else,
because for me all what is important is to use the code in accordance to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity
Best regards
Janko
Post by Stephen Pair
Janko,
I hate to drag this up again, and maybe you've covered it before, but
could you share your reasoning behind licensing Aida as LGPL. Would you
consider also making it available under MIT? I personally am hesitant
to do anything with software under any L/GPL type license. I think
others have a similar concern and that might be an issue if a number of
the squeak websites used Aida. It's an honest question, I have no
agenda here (other than a concern over L/GPL type licenses).
- Stephen
P.S. My opinion on L/GPL is that these licenses served a useful purpose
and were a necessity to prevent Unix vendors from simply co-opting
Stallman's work at a time when open source wasn't the norm. But today,
the situation is much different. Open source is largely accepted and
its value well understood. GPL and LGPL impose unnecessary restrictions
on use and only serve to complicate matters. I can appreciate why
Stallman is so stuck on GPL given his experiences, but I think he's sort
of stuck in the past.
Hi Squeakers,
I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping
Squeak
Post by Stephen Pair
community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building
up
Post by Stephen Pair
and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some
experience
Post by Stephen Pair
how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations
(SEO).
Post by Stephen Pair
That experience can help to improve a bit otherwise already very
rich
Post by Stephen Pair
Squeak website. Other possibility for improvement is to upgrade
technology behind website and here I can again contribute with
Aida/Scribo CMS, which is a base for Aida's website and is currently
in
Post by Stephen Pair
intense development, just adding blog support. That way a Squeak
website
Post by Stephen Pair
will also be a show point of most advanced technology Squeakers
have.
Post by Stephen Pair
Which is good in my opinion for Squeak and Smalltalk promotion in general.
To conclude, I can contribute with maintaining content on one side
but
Post by Stephen Pair
also to upgrade the website technology to Aida/Scribo CMS, so that a
website will be modern, with fresh and relevant content and with all
things such site needs to have those days.
Janko
Post by Ken Causey
While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you
and
Post by Stephen Pair
Post by Ken Causey
some others have missed the point. Karl is not fishing for
comments.
Post by Stephen Pair
Post by Ken Causey
In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to
step
Post by Stephen Pair
Post by Ken Causey
down from leading the website team and would like to find a
replacement.
Post by Ken Causey
He has not gotten any replies. He is now stating that he really
is
Post by Stephen Pair
Post by Ken Causey
leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it
is now
Post by Ken Causey
really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for
the
Post by Stephen Pair
Post by Ken Causey
immediate future at the very least.
Ken
Post by Germán Arduino
I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting,
complete and cool.
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Thanks you.
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the
community!
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
Post by karl
I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a
few
Post by Stephen Pair
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
years,
Post by karl
and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars
31 I will
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
Post by karl
step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to
maintain the
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
Post by karl
website, ftp and mailing list.
I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web
appearence join
Post by Ken Causey
Post by Germán Arduino
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
the
Post by karl
webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
Karl
You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
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Jason Rogers
2012-01-28 12:16:06 UTC
Permalink
For what it's worth... I have been on the Squeak WebTeam almost since
the beginning, mostly in a ghost-like capacity, for some time in the
lead position. I do what I can, when I can -- which is to say I don't
do much.

The site is running in a very old instance of SmallWiki, as this
thread has already shown. Personally, I would like to see it updated.
One of the main concerns we have had is about content backup. Our
current solution of snapshotting the image and tar-gzipping it has
historically been a poor (and very disk-space-expensive) solution.

I would like to have him give it a go, for a few different reasons,
mainly due to his enthusiasm. There's no need for the community to
polarize because he wants to use Aida instead of Seaside. They
compete with each other a bit, but competition is good!!! It fuels
innovation.

My 2 cents.

--
Jason
Post by Janko Mivšek
Hi Squeakers,
I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building up
and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some experience
how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).
That experience can help to improve a bit otherwise already very rich
Squeak website. Other possibility for improvement is to upgrade
technology behind website and here I can again contribute with
Aida/Scribo CMS, which is a base for Aida's website and is currently in
intense development, just adding blog support. That way a Squeak website
will also be a show point of most advanced technology Squeakers have.
Which is good in my opinion for Squeak and Smalltalk promotion in general.
To conclude, I can contribute with maintaining content on one side but
also to upgrade the website technology to Aida/Scribo CMS, so that a
website will be modern, with fresh and relevant content and with all
things such site needs to have those days.
Janko
Post by Ken Causey
While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you and
some others have missed the point. Karl is not fishing for comments.
In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to step
down from leading the website team and would like to find a replacement.
He has not gotten any replies. He is now stating that he really is
leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it is now
really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for the
immediate future at the very least.
Ken
Post by Germán Arduino
I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting, complete and cool.
Thanks you.
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the community!
Ron Teitelbaum
Post by karl
Post by karl
I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
years,
Post by karl
and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars 31 I will
step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
website, ftp and mailing list.
I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join
the
Post by karl
webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
Karl
You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
Sebastian Sastre
2012-01-28 12:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Personnaly, I think there is room for both...
Post by cdrick
especially if you consider the squeak site is *static* so I don't
really see interest in having seaside used here (of course Pier could
do it) as we could not say there are high level business processes in
the squeak sites...).
But it should not. Because:

1) Seems that Squeak will have a non profit fundation. If so, to facilitate things for users who want to make online donations should have a HIGH priority. That?s highly interactive and important in many/money senses.

2)Other non static example could be *something* that can give a taste of what can be to interact with smalltalk code made online (of course that sand box has to be an independent on the fly reconstructible image for security reasons).

The navegable source that we may have and this smalltalk code interactive online sandbox will provide a glimpse of how is to interact with a smalltalk without downloading it.

If we do that we demolish the download barrier and nowadays to download could be a barrier higher than we may think.

Cheers,

Sebastian
cdrick
2012-01-28 12:16:06 UTC
Permalink
be static ? yes ok, but I still can see it as highly dynamic...
Post by Sebastian Sastre
2)Other non static example could be *something* that can give a taste of what
can be to interact with smalltalk code made online (of course that sand box has
to be an independent on the fly reconstructible image for security reasons).
The navegable source that we may have and this smalltalk code interactive online
sandbox will provide a glimpse of how is to interact with a smalltalk without
downloading it.
There are already some directions:
-WABrowser in seaside...
-Janko also plan something in this area (see Summer of Code)...
-and OB-Web is also particularly cool...
Post by Sebastian Sastre
If we do that we demolish the download barrier and nowadays to download could be a barrier higher than we may think.
I think navigable and sand-box images should be detached from the "web
site"... so doesn't really matter how the web site is done... but
definitely a good idea :)

For the squeak site, I see two alternatives:

-Seaside/Pier
and
-Aida/Scribo

And as Janko seems motivated to invest time... I wouldn't mind, he
does it in Aida...

But maybe before choosing the tool, objectives should be clear ! And
right now It's not clear to me if people want :
(1) fresh and updated content + design, or
(2) the next gen web site...

As a start, I think (1) is enough especially if deadline is March 31 !

Cheers,

C?drick
Brad Fuller
2012-01-28 12:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by cdrick
-Seaside/Pier
and
-Aida/Scribo
And as Janko seems motivated to invest time... I wouldn't mind, he
does it in Aida...
But maybe before choosing the tool, objectives should be clear ! And
(1) fresh and updated content + design, or
(2) the next gen web site...
Who, on the webteam, is also versed in Aida? We should have at least 3
other people on the team who understand this engine for support.
Ken Causey
2012-01-28 12:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Brad and Jason,

I want to explain a little bit about how this discussion got started.
You I believe will have noticed the emails from Karl yesterday where he
had gotten to the point of wanting the Board to appoint someone to
replace him as website team leader because he could not find a
replacement. I insisted that this was not a job for the Board and he
needed to give the community one more chance and make it as clear as
possible that there was no more time to wait around, someone needed to
step up now.

After that I was thinking about why no one had stepped up previously and
I had come to the conclusion that no one was interested in a job that
seemed like merely drudgework making minor changes to an existing site.
It occurred to me that many capable people might be interested if only
they could make a more significant change.

At the same time I had just logged onto #squeak and looked around at the
people in the channel and wondered if any of them seemed like likely
candidates to me and whether I could talk any of them into volunteering.
After looking around the only one I could think of was Janko Mivsek.
Janko is pretty active in wanting to promote Aida and it occured to me
that he might find the idea of building a new Squeak.org site using Aida
as very attractive and because it would be a visible representative of
Aida he would have an interest in maintaining the site over the long
term. So I asked him if he would be interested.

In the back of my mind (well maybe more in the foreground than that) I
wondered why no one from the Seaside community had stepped up and it
occurred to me that Janko stepping up might spur one of them to also do
so. That has yet to happen.

However please note that someone else has stepped up and that is Brian
Rice. Brian is not happy about having Janko involved and is interested
more in maintaining something more like the status quo although possibly
switching to a Seaside hosted website. I recommend that you talk to
Brian and see if you can work with him and what he has in mind.

Also of course one of you would be welcome to step forward. Jason was
the previous team leader of course so maybe he feels he has done his
stint. Your turn Brad?

Ken
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Jason Rogers
2012-01-28 12:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Ken.

I have read this thread thoroughly and I understand Brian's
perspective. I don't have a strong leaning one way or the other,
though I didn't quite care for the tone of Brian's email (though I may
have read into it more than I should have -- which is always possible
in email -- so Sorry Brian if I inferred a tone that you weren't
implying).

While I don't claim any authority on the team or the site, here are
some of my concerns (off the top of my head):
- the site ought to be written in Smalltalk
- we need to lessen the burden of disk space, which would require a
lot of (too much?) development in the current site
- base size of the image is a little hefty
- if the image holds the data, we have to snapshot and copy the
image -- but if the content is external, we can back up the content
more frequently (with a much better compression rate than the image)
and back up the image much less frequently
- the content should be easily manipulated, without requiring editing
the image directly
- the current image is quite old (3.7 variant, I believe) and doesn't
take advantage of recent improvements in Squeak (FastSocket comes to
mind)


There are other concerns (eg. look and feel) that others are welcome
to chime in on. FWIW: I like the look'n'feel of our site.

--
Jason
Post by Ken Causey
Brad and Jason,
I want to explain a little bit about how this discussion got started.
You I believe will have noticed the emails from Karl yesterday where he
had gotten to the point of wanting the Board to appoint someone to
replace him as website team leader because he could not find a
replacement. I insisted that this was not a job for the Board and he
needed to give the community one more chance and make it as clear as
possible that there was no more time to wait around, someone needed to
step up now.
After that I was thinking about why no one had stepped up previously and
I had come to the conclusion that no one was interested in a job that
seemed like merely drudgework making minor changes to an existing site.
It occurred to me that many capable people might be interested if only
they could make a more significant change.
At the same time I had just logged onto #squeak and looked around at the
people in the channel and wondered if any of them seemed like likely
candidates to me and whether I could talk any of them into volunteering.
After looking around the only one I could think of was Janko Mivsek.
Janko is pretty active in wanting to promote Aida and it occured to me
that he might find the idea of building a new Squeak.org site using Aida
as very attractive and because it would be a visible representative of
Aida he would have an interest in maintaining the site over the long
term. So I asked him if he would be interested.
In the back of my mind (well maybe more in the foreground than that) I
wondered why no one from the Seaside community had stepped up and it
occurred to me that Janko stepping up might spur one of them to also do
so. That has yet to happen.
However please note that someone else has stepped up and that is Brian
Rice. Brian is not happy about having Janko involved and is interested
more in maintaining something more like the status quo although possibly
switching to a Seaside hosted website. I recommend that you talk to
Brian and see if you can work with him and what he has in mind.
Also of course one of you would be welcome to step forward. Jason was
the previous team leader of course so maybe he feels he has done his
stint. Your turn Brad?
Ken
Randal L. Schwartz
2012-01-28 12:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Jason> - if the image holds the data, we have to snapshot and copy the
Jason> image -- but if the content is external, we can back up the content
Jason> more frequently (with a much better compression rate than the image)
Jason> and back up the image much less frequently
Jason> - the content should be easily manipulated, without requiring editing
Jason> the image directly
Jason> - the current image is quite old (3.7 variant, I believe) and doesn't
Jason> take advantage of recent improvements in Squeak (FastSocket comes to
Jason> mind)

Can we use ImageSegments or Magma for this? I mean, saving the whole image
works, but we certainly want to use modern technology now that it's available.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<***@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Jason Rogers
2012-01-28 12:16:07 UTC
Permalink
Magma isn't possible in the current image.

I have never used ImageSegments, so I don't know if it's even possible
in the image we have.

I don't much mind how the content is backed up as long as it's easy,
minimal in size, and able to be used in a restoration.

On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Randal L. Schwartz
Post by Randal L. Schwartz
Jason> - if the image holds the data, we have to snapshot and copy the
Jason> image -- but if the content is external, we can back up the content
Jason> more frequently (with a much better compression rate than the image)
Jason> and back up the image much less frequently
Jason> - the content should be easily manipulated, without requiring editing
Jason> the image directly
Jason> - the current image is quite old (3.7 variant, I believe) and doesn't
Jason> take advantage of recent improvements in Squeak (FastSocket comes to
Jason> mind)
Can we use ImageSegments or Magma for this? I mean, saving the whole image
works, but we certainly want to use modern technology now that it's available.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
--
Jason Rogers

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life
which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of
the Son of God, who loved me, and gave
himself for me."
Galatians 2:20
Janko Mivšek
2012-01-28 12:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Brad,
Post by Brad Fuller
Who, on the webteam, is also versed in Aida? We should have at least 3
other people on the team who understand this engine for support.
I don't think that so many technically knowledgeable people need to be
in WebTeam, but yes, there should exist at least so many people
knowledgeable on technology and willing to help if needed.

And from response to exactly that question on Aida mailing list you can
see that there are so many people willing to help. And Nicolas Petton,
core member of Aida dev team will surely join WebTeam. Then we are more
that strong enough, long-term!

Janko
--
Janko Miv?ek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
Nicolas Petton
2012-01-28 12:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Fuller
Post by cdrick
-Seaside/Pier
and
-Aida/Scribo
And as Janko seems motivated to invest time... I wouldn't mind, he
does it in Aida...
But maybe before choosing the tool, objectives should be clear ! And
(1) fresh and updated content + design, or
(2) the next gen web site...
Who, on the webteam, is also versed in Aida? We should have at least 3
other people on the team who understand this engine for support.
Hi,

I'm not in the webteam, but I would be happy to join and help you there.
I know well Aida, I contribute to it and also to Aida/Scribo.

Cheers!

Nico
--
Nicolas Petton
http://nico.bioskop.fr
___
ooooooo
OOOOOOOOO
|Smalltalk|
OOOOOOOOO
ooooooo
\ /
[|]
--------------------------------
Ma cl? PGP est disponible ici :
http://nico.bioskop.fr/pgp-key.html
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Francois Stephany
2012-01-28 12:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Fuller
Post by cdrick
-Seaside/Pier
and
-Aida/Scribo
And as Janko seems motivated to invest time... I wouldn't mind, he
does it in Aida...
But maybe before choosing the tool, objectives should be clear ! And
(1) fresh and updated content + design, or
(2) the next gen web site...
Who, on the webteam, is also versed in Aida? We should have at least 3
other people on the team who understand this engine for support.
Hi,

I'm not a Squeak's expert but i'll be pleased to help if needed for the
website.
I believe that a "fresh" design and a more clear website could be great
for Squeak reputation: the present website simply makes the potential
newcomers run away (i gave a talk about squeak last week - some people
never tried it because of the aspect of the website and of squeak itself)...


Cheers,

Francois
Jimmie Houchin
2012-01-28 12:16:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Fuller
Post by cdrick
-Seaside/Pier
and
-Aida/Scribo
And as Janko seems motivated to invest time... I wouldn't mind, he
does it in Aida...
But maybe before choosing the tool, objectives should be clear ! And
(1) fresh and updated content + design, or
(2) the next gen web site...
Who, on the webteam, is also versed in Aida? We should have at least 3
other people on the team who understand this engine for support.
Not that there aren't 3 other people. A number of people from the Aida
mailing list, including myself, have offered to contribute as able.

And who on the current webteam aren't able or capable to spend a minimum
amount of time to become acquainted with the technology (Aida, which is
arguably simpler than Seaside) when we would argue to anybody who is not
even acquainted with Smalltalk that it is well worth learning Smalltalk
to be able to use it. The same would apply to any Squeaker who wants to
contribute to the website regardless as to whether it is Seaside or Aida
of which neither is used in the current Squeak website and neither has
any member of the webteam stepped up to claim expertise in either
technology in order to persuade its adoption for use on the future
Squeak website. (To my understanding or memory.)

The number of qualified Seaside or Aida people is irrelevant. The number
of Seaside or Aida people willing to commit is.

Both are capable and qualified technologies on Smalltalk.

But what other volunteers do you see offering services that you are also
subjecting to such demands. Aida is not harder to learn or inferior to
Seaside in any way.

If someone energetically from the Seaside community made such an offer
would they also be resisted with as much adversity? I don't think so.

Currently the people volunteering time and work are Aida users. That is
not a bad thing, nor does it say anything negatively at all about
Seaside. Seaside is wonderful technology, but it isn't the only
technology. Nor the only Smalltalk/Squeak technology. Nor is Aida/Scribo
oh so Web 2.0 and Seaside so beyond.

I am sorry to seeming come out harsh here. But I think the negative
backlash against Aida/Scribo is unwarranted. It doesn't make Seaside
better. Seaside is well able to speak for itself, even alongside a
little bit of friendly competition from Aida/Scribo. People don't need
to put Aida/Scribo down in order to lift up Seaside.

In fact the work that Janko has put into Swazoo it is easy to run them
side by side.

And the Seaside advocates are no less passionate about Seaside than
Janko is about Aida. The fact is that currently no one from the Seaside
community has stepped up and said, we'll be happy to take care of this.
Not because they don't care. But they are busy people as are we all.

It just so happens that business interests and the interests of Squeak
happen to coincide for the Aida community. This is not a bad thing. Nor
is the result a bad thing.

Pros to my understanding for Aida are that Aida is far less resource
hungry. Aida is reasonably RESTful by its nature. And there are others.
Pros for Seaside is some of the magic that it can do. But is that
necessary to the task at hand? I don't think so. It isn't a requirement
for the current site. Aida is not a technology for static websites,
though it can probably handle that just fine. It does dynamic web sites
by nature. I don't know of anything off hand that Seaside can do that
Aida can't that is required or desired for the Squeak website. I maybe
wrong, but should there be such a deficiency, could we not allow Aida
the same opportunity to correct such deficiency?

My apologies to Janko if I speak for him out of hand. But if I am
correct, Janko is offering to provide a place for a migration of content
to Aida/Scribo independent and separate from the current implementation.
At such a point that the community deems it worthy to become the new
Squeak website, it could easily be migrated to the Squeak servers.

With this plan there is no risk or cost to the Squeak community outside
of that to the volunteers to assist Janko.

The most precious resource we have in the Squeak community are the
people willing to step up and do something. Here we have some one
willing to do so, and we are putting demands on them that we wouldn't
put on any other part of the community. Come on.

Unless you have something truly and honestly negative to say about
Aida/Scribo based on knowledge of Aida/Scribo and equally superior
knowledge about Seaside, then please be a little more generous about
somebody volunteering to help Squeak and the Squeak community.
Post by Brad Fuller
except I believe it's embarrassing not to use the language we so
fervently and religiously promote. If we didn't have a usable
Smalltalk web engine, then I would understand. But, Seaside is
available and it's great. And if it's deficient in some way, we have
the resources to change/add/delete/enhance in the community.
Absolutely, but Aida is also all Smalltalk, available and great. What
ways can you define it as deficient? I just don't see your justified
antagonism or adversarial attitude. Being Pro Seaside does not mean anti
Aida.

If I have any factual errors in this email my apologies. I just felt
impassioned to correct the anti-Aida attitude that I perceive (whether
correctly or not).

It is wrong to choose Seaside over Aida merely because it has a longer
mindshare in the Squeak community. That alone does not make it worthy or
unworthy. If Janko and the Aida community can not deliver on what they
say. Then hold them accountable. But only if another community steps up
and delivers on the goods desired. Until then, give whomever a break.

Ahhh!!!

Jimmie
Igor Stasenko
2012-01-28 12:16:07 UTC
Permalink
Go Janko Go Go,
Janko be good :)


--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
Norbert Hartl
2012-01-28 12:16:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by karl
I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few years,
and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars 31 I will
step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
website, ftp and mailing list.
I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join the
webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
Could you please summarize what were your main duties being the
leader of the web team? What was the work you had most to do?
Is it html changes, image maintenance,...?

Now I now you did it a long time and must have collected a lot
of experience doing it. I read the whole thread about what
technology changes we are planning with squeak.org (And how much
more complex a new web site will be). But my assumption would be that
the main part of being webteam leader is much more boring: maintenance?

Even if I miss the point completely I'm still interested in the
border which divides the duty of a box admin and web team leader. How
did you work with the online images? How did you upgrade? How often
you needed to step in quickly because there was a problem with the
site? How did you debug problems (if there were any)?

thanks in advance,

Norbert

P.S.: I hope "...exiting areas..." was just a typo ;)
karl
2012-01-28 12:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Norbert Hartl
Post by karl
I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few years,
and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars 31 I will
step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
website, ftp and mailing list.
I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join the
webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
Could you please summarize what were your main duties being the
leader of the web team? What was the work you had most to do?
Is it html changes, image maintenance,...?
Biggest day to day job is mailing list moderation.
Updating text and pictures on the site, ( wiki style).
Other stuff is linking to the right images, sources changes on the FTP.
Building and uploading bundles to the FTP.
Occasional VNC session on the image to implement a change to Smallwiki.
Fiddling with CSS and Smallwiki templates.
Post by Norbert Hartl
Now I now you did it a long time and must have collected a lot
of experience doing it. I read the whole thread about what
technology changes we are planning with squeak.org (And how much
more complex a new web site will be). But my assumption would be that
the main part of being webteam leader is much more boring: maintenance?
Yes, it's not a big job, if you can delegate tasks and projects. It's a
big job to migrate the site to another platform and get everything
going, but otherwise it mostly smooth sailing.
Post by Norbert Hartl
Even if I miss the point completely I'm still interested in the
border which divides the duty of a box admin and web team leader.
Ken have done the work of keeping it running. I've just done the files
on FTP and the website.
Post by Norbert Hartl
How did you work with the online images? How did you upgrade? How often
you needed to step in quickly because there was a problem with the
site? How did you debug problems (if there were any)?
I just TightVNC to access the images which run a VNC server. We don't
upgrade. Most stuff done quickly is done by Ken. Debuggin is either
through VNC or by downloading the images and running them locally.
Post by Norbert Hartl
thanks in advance,
Norbert
P.S.: I hope "...exiting areas..." was just a typo ;)
:-)
Karl
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